Romans 8:1-4 2 views

[Piper]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I'm really focusing on verse 4.

in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The 2 views in summary.
1. Christ is the one who fulfilled the law. We are in Christ, and in Union with him, we have fulfilled the law.

2. We have received the Spirit, and we walk in the Spirit, and by that same Spirit, we fulfil (Obviously not perfectly) the law by obeying the law of liberty, or law of love.

What say ye?

 

[MrW]

I say, righteousness is imputed to me, by virtue of Christ. of course I try to walk pleasing to Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm really focusing on verse 4.

in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you.......

 

[KenH]

we fulfil (Obviously not perfectly) the law by obeying the law of liberty, or law of love.

Unless the law is obeyed perfectly, unless one has a perfect righteousness in which God cannot find a flaw, then one cannot stand before God, i.e., one cannot be saved. Thus Christ fulfilled the law on behalf of God's elect, their sins were imputed to Him and He paid their debt, His perfect righteousness is imputed to them, and they can stand before God, i.e., they are saved.

 

[Piper]

Unless the law is obeyed perfectly, unless one has a perfect righteousness in which God cannot find a flaw, then one cannot stand before God, i.e., one cannot be saved. Thus Christ fulfilled the law on behalf of God's elect, their sins were imputed to Him and He paid their debt, His perfect righteousness is imputed to them, and they can stand before God, i.e., they are saved.

I agree. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. But in this verse, is fulfilling the law done by us through the Spirit after we are Justified, or is that phrase looking back to Christ fulfilling the law for us when he lived and died and rose?

I think you are saying it is pointing back in the highlighted portion.

 

[Piper]

I say, righteousness is imputed to me, by virtue of Christ. of course I try to walk pleasing to Christ.

I agree. We are justified when the Righteousness of Christ is counted (or imputed) to us when we believe.

Is it possible then that we, in some sense, by the presence of the Spirit in us, fulfill the law as we walk in the Spirit?

I have not tipped my hard yet as to my view. I actually changed my view from I what once believed.

 

[MrW]

As long as we are in these mortal bodies, we will fail from time to time. When we are raised in our glorified bodies, the presence of sin will no longer be with us.

 

[MrW]

If we do good as we are led by the flesh (the old nature that was crucified) that is not pleasing to God, because it comes from the flesh, which will do anything to keep from dying, even do good deeds. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. If we are led of the Spirit, that is pleasing to God.

 

[37818]

The 2 views in summary.
1. Christ is the one who fulfilled the law. We are in Christ, and in Union with him, we have fulfilled the law.

2. We have received the Spirit, and we walk in the Spirit, and by that same Spirit, we fulfil (Obviously not perfectly) the law by obeying the law of liberty, or law of love.

What say ye?

That there is a third view.
Galatians 5:18, ". . . But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. . . ."
Romans 4:15, ". . . Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. . . ."
Romans 10:4, ". . . For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. . . ."
Romans 3:31, ". . . Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. . . ."
Etc.

 

[DaveXR650]

The 2 views in summary.
1. Christ is the one who fulfilled the law. We are in Christ, and in Union with him, we have fulfilled the law.

2. We have received the Spirit, and we walk in the Spirit, and by that same Spirit, we fulfil (Obviously not perfectly) the law by obeying the law of liberty, or law of love.

With view "1", how do you deal with passages like Romans 8:13 ?
With view "2" does it mean that our fulfilling of the law, although imperfectly, is what results in justification? That is what Baxter taught.

 

[KenH]

I think you are saying it is pointing back in the highlighted portion.

Absolutely, as we cannot fulfill the law. If it is not kept absolutely perfectly, then it is as if it was not kept at all.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[kyredneck]

we cannot fulfill the law

...it's not what Paul said:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

...it's not what Christ said:

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

Even the Rabbinism of Christ's day had condensed the law to it's simplest terms:

“…Rabbinism is never weary of quoting as one of the characteristic sayings of its greatest teacher, Hillel (who, of course, lived before this time), that he had summed up the Law, in briefest compass, in these words: ‘What is hateful to thee, that do not to another. This is the whole Law; the rest is only its explanation…..” Life & Times - Edersheim

 

[KenH]

...it's not what Paul said:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

...it's not what Christ said:

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

Even the Rabbinism of Christ's day had condensed the law to it's simplest terms:

“…Rabbinism is never weary of quoting as one of the characteristic sayings of its greatest teacher, Hillel (who, of course, lived before this time), that he had summed up the Law, in briefest compass, in these words: ‘What is hateful to thee, that do not to another. This is the whole Law; the rest is only its explanation…..” Life & Times - Edersheim

God had the writer of Hebrews to write: Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Also, Jesus said, Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

(emphasis mine)

Please be sure to let me know when you become perfect (become as perfect as God) by what you do or what you don't do.

Speaking for myself, nothing that I do or refrain from doing makes me perfect, and never will. May God keep me from ever thinking such a thing of myself.

 

[tyndale1946]

To stick my foot into the discussion, and then there is this... Brother Glen

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[kyredneck]

God had the writer of Hebrews to write: Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Also, Jesus said, Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

(emphasis mine)

Please be sure to let me know when you become perfect (become as perfect as God) by what you do or what you don't do.

Speaking for myself, nothing that I do or refrain from doing makes me perfect, and never will. May God keep me from ever thinking such a thing of myself.

All you’ve done here Ken is to pit scripture against scripture and show that you’ve yet to have the epiphany that agape is the essence of both the old and new covenants.

 

[Deacon]

Imagine that you are in debt, onerous debt, debt so deep you can not imagine ever covering it.

Jesus covered that debt.
And he continues to make things right.
Jesus Christ covers your forensic debt.

The Spirit works to lead you into a right budget.

All your debt is covered, but the Spirit guides you towards a proper way of living, a right walk.

So my answer to the original question is, both are right, leaning towards the second in real life situations.

Rob

 

[kyredneck]

48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Mt 5

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10

 

[Piper]

This is good discussion. I have heard all of these scriptures and points raised. My issue is that I differ in my interpretation from many of my trusted peers and leaders. There are good arguments for both (or all 3) interpretations, although I'd like @37818 to flesh out what he means.

I tend toward version 2, because it says in Romans 8:4 the law is fulfilled "In" us, not for us. And that the result is that we "walk" according to the Spirit. I think that both things are true, Christ fulfilled the law for us in his perfect life, death burial and resurrection. But then we walk in real love, by the Spirit fulfilling the law of love, or in other words, loving others through the Spirit. It is never the ground of our justification. We do it by faith. And is not a perfect love, but nonetheless it s real love. Unit he returns or I see him face to face, it will be an imperfect love.

Having said that, some of my most trusted peers and friends and leaders disagree with me, and yet we walk in brotherly love, serving together.

 

[Van]

SNIP 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
SNIP
The 2 views in summary.
1. Christ is the one who fulfilled the law. We are in Christ, and in Union with him, we have fulfilled the law.

2. We have received the Spirit, and we walk in the Spirit, and by that same Spirit, we fulfil (Obviously not perfectly) the law by obeying the law of liberty, or law of love.

What say ye?

From verse Romans 8:1 we see that our condition "in Christ" is being addressed.

From verse 2 we that the result of being "in Christ" and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ (our Paraclete) is that we are free from the result of sin and spiritual death. No subsequent action on our part can change this "law."

Verse 3 addresses the truth that Christ's gift to those placed within His Spiritual body is to condemn sin, to nullify any consequence of our sin, past, present or future.

Which then brings us to verse 4.

Here Paul addresses not what has already been accomplished, our having been made eternally righreous, but our future ministry as indwelt believers. Note the use of the subjunctive, indicating our possible future action. The idea is that the result of being indwelt and righteous might lead us to fulfill righteousness by our behavior according to the guidance of our Paraclete.

So the summary should read, in Christ and in union with Christ results is our fulfillment of God's requirements as a consequence of the Law. But in addition, as Ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of Reconciliation, we ought to walk according to the Spirit in order to be the best Ambassadors we can be.

 

[KenH]

All you’ve done here Ken is to pit scripture against scripture

Actually, I have shown that ALL of the Holy Scriptures are in agreement.

The Holy Scriptures teach throughout that without a person's sins being imputed to Christ and Him paying the debt for them, and the perfect righteousness of Christ being imputed to a person, a person will not be saved.