7 point Calvinism

[JonC]

Let me tell you a case I know of because I know the minister and the PB Church where it happened... A Filipino was attending school in Southern California and happen one Sunday to visit a PB Church in the area... He knew nothing about the PB's but after the service he told the minister I want to hear more... Not only that, when I go home and I want my friends to hear more... He kept coming time and time again and attended Bible Study and was soon, immersed in the doctrine and mentored by other ministers and finally he was ordained here and returned home.

He started his own PB Church in the Philippines and was able to convey in his own language to his own people Salvation by Grace... No money was need, no board was used and God moved in his own way to instruct his own... To me that is a missionary... If God wants to SAVE a man, he WILL, SAVE THAT MAN!... Is anything to hard for God?... Brother Glen

I do not think there is one PB on here that will disagree with what I said!

I agree that is evangelism. I believe in missions, but by this I think the most often used by God is our personal witness.

I am not going to say that foreign missions are wrong (how shall they hear without a preacher). But I believe the form this should take is church plants with churches then ministering within its own community through its own members.

By your comments I take it that you are not opposed to witnessing (to sharing the gospel with others) but instead are less enthusiastic about para-church ordinations involved in missions.

 

[JonC]

He answered that… but for your edification Jon, please see another Elder Gowen sermon addressing your question

https://www.iowaprimitivebaptist.org/docs/Ten Reasons Primitive Baptists Are Not Calvinists.htm

I have read this (it came up when I did a Google search along with several others....I think the exact same post on different sites).

The problem I have with it is that it does not accurately reflect Calvinism as used today (it shows how Primitive Baptists are not Presbyterian).

Perhaps my question should be refined.... What is the difference in soteriology between Primitive Baptists and Reformed Baptists. That's the part I don't fully get (except one embraces a name and the other doesn't).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have read this (it came up when I did a Google search along with several others....I think the exact same post on different sites).

The problem I have with it is that it does not accurately reflect Calvinism as used today (it shows how Primitive Baptists are not Presbyterian).

Perhaps my question should be refined.... What is the difference in soteriology between Primitive Baptists and Reformed Baptists. That's the part I don't fully get (except one embraces a name and the other doesn't).

Conventalism, no confessions, no sacramentalism, no predestination in totality, no musical instruments in services, a focus on temporal life along with spiritual eternal life, feet washing, like what are you looking for? Your the one who has more knowledge of Baptistic Calvinists not I so explain their platform and me and my PB brothers will respond in kind. Glen has already explained our position on missions and evangelism. Elder Gowens has explained Predestination, Regeneration, Perserving Grace vs Preservation Grace, the Solas ( Grace, Blood, Works , Faith ), the religious instructions of our children…etc, it’s all there for those who have eyes. Of course you probably will not find any charts and graphs comparing and contrasting PB’s from Reformed. I personally don’t think that we PB’s can exist well with Calvinists…we are a different breed from them and I don’t feel comfortable around them… for they are the prevailing moral majority while we are seen by them as the immoral minority that don’t fit in to their religiosities. Subsequently we are labeled as Hyper- Calvinists, Antinomians, etc. FUNNY. You won’t find The RCC in our backgrounds nor the Puritans, nor any violent subgroups. We don’t come from that… never the persecutors but the persecuted.

 

[Piper]

Yikes, my thread has turned into a full blown discussion of Primitive Baptists. That they do not believe in Evangelism nor practice what Jesus commanded in Matthew 28 makes me think that they are disobedient brethren. Brethren, but unwilling to acknowledge the simple command, " Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From what I've read, only on Wikipedia, Primitive Baptists are Calvinistic, and Probably hyper Calvinists. Is that fair?

No … dig deeper.

 

[Piper]

No … dig deeper.

If you're one, just tell me what your main points of difference are between you and Reformed Baptists.

 

[taisto]

If you're one, just tell me what your main points of difference are between you and Reformed Baptists.

I don't think EWF can articulate it. He was raised a Roman Catholic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yikes, my thread has turned into a full blown discussion of Primitive Baptists. That they do not believe in Evangelism nor practice what Jesus commanded in Matthew 28 makes me think that they are disobedient brethren. Brethren, but unwilling to acknowledge the simple command, " Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Where are you getting your information from? First of all you are ‘thinking’ (guessing) not knowing definitely therefore you are unsure of yourself. Next you compound your confusion by accusing PB’s of not following scripture…. What is the matter with you? Before you accuse a brother you better well be sure you got it cold.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't think EWF can articulate it. He was raised a Roman Catholic.

Yea for the 1st 35 years but I’m now 67 and I’ve studied tons… plus I know RC theology cold.

is this part of Calvinism, thinking (guessing) but never knowing?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't think EWF can articulate it. He was raised a Roman Catholic.

If you're one, just tell me what your main points of difference are between you and Reformed Baptists.

I am one, so ask the questions and I will provide you what I know… and if I can’t then a another PB brother will step in to answer your question.

 

[tyndale1946]

I am one, so ask the questions and I will provide you what I know… and if I can’t then a another PB brother will step in to answer your question.

This no place to answer these questions... First of all I'm not Calvinist, nor Arminian but I suggest all PB's and those who want to see what we believe and how we differ from other beliefs go to this site and let Piper debate according to his OP... Brother Glen

Primitive Baptist? How do you see 'salvation', as related to you?

 

[Piper]

I am one, so ask the questions and I will provide you what I know… and if I can’t then a another PB brother will step in to answer your question.

Do you believe in Evangelism? I mean where Humans preach the gospel to unbelievers? Is that the general belief of primitive baptists?

I read a Primitive Baptist website that said this:
SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT PRIMITIVE BAPTIST
We do object to the common idea of missions; namely, that eternal salvation is brought to individuals by the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel does not bring salvation but rather reveals salvation. It is "the savior of death unto death; and... of life unto life" (II Corinthians 2:16).
... "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Some people believe that a person cannot be saved unless he hears and accepts the Gospel. This belief completely damns anyone who has not heard the Gospel, even if his failure to hear it was because no one preached it to him. Is it reasonable to assume that God would predicate salvation on a belief such as this? Someone might say that if a person never hears the Gospel, he is not held accountable and will therefore be saved automatically. If this is so, why send preachers anywhere? If a preacher goes to a country where the Gospel is heard for the first time, some will believe and some will not. Those who do not believe are said to be not saved and will go to hell. If we leave the preacher home, all of them would be saved. Can God's plan of salvation have this many holes in it? No, the Bible tells us "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..." (Revelation 5:9). Since God has a people in every kindred and tongue and people and nation, certainly their salvation does not depend upon a preacher's reaching them with the Gospel, but it depends upon the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT PRIMITIVE BAPTIST


That says to me that they do not believe in preaching the gospel as a means of evangelism.

 

[Piper]

Where are you getting your information from? First of all you are ‘thinking’ (guessing) not knowing definitely therefore you are unsure of yourself. Next you compound your confusion by accusing PB’s of not following scripture…. What is the matter with you? Before you accuse a brother you better well be damn sure you got it cold. Better to shut up until you got yourself together.

I have seen some on this forum who identify as PB who basically say they do not believe in evangelism, all the while dancing around the question.

What is the matter with me? If you believe that, you are definitely disobedient to Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Conventalism, no confessions, no sacramentalism, no predestination in totality, no musical instruments in services, a focus on temporal life along with spiritual eternal life, feet washing, like what are you looking for? Your the one who has more knowledge of Baptistic Calvinists not I so explain their platform and me and my PB brothers will respond in kind. Glen has already explained our position on missions and evangelism. Elder Gowens has explained Predestination, Regeneration, Perserving Grace vs Preservation Grace, the Solas ( Grace, Blood, Works , Faith ), the religious instructions of our children…etc, it’s all there for those who have eyes. Of course you probably will not find any charts and graphs comparing and contrasting PB’s from Reformed. I personally don’t think that we PB’s can exist well with Calvinists…we are a different breed from them and I don’t feel comfortable around them… for they are the prevailing moral majority while we are seen by them as the immoral minority that don’t fit in to their religiosities. Subsequently we are labeled as Hyper- Calvinists, Antinomians, etc. FUNNY. You won’t find The RCC in our backgrounds nor the Puritans, nor any violent subgroups. We don’t come from that… never the persecutors but the persecuted.

I still don't see the difference in terms of Calvinism itself.

Calvinism itself does not hold Preservation as described in the article.

Calvinists do not view salvation as being mediated by the church.

The article is correct that most Calvinists hold to justification by faith alone (confusing justification with salvation). But this is not Calvinism (it is a doctrine of justification).

Some Calvinists affirm "double predestination", but most do not.

Calvinists differ on "absolute predestination".

I appreciate differences you mention, but they are not differences with Calvinism.


Also, the article confuses "Protestant" with coming from the RCC. Not all Protestants were members of the RCC (what made these Christians "Protestant" is that they opposed (or protested) RCC doctrine rather than embracing it.

That is why Anabaptists during the 15th and 16th century were Protestants even though they never were a part of the RCC.


It seems by reading materials online that Primitive Baptists do meet the definition of "Calvinist" as used by most Christians, but they do not meet their own definition.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you believe in Evangelism? I mean where Humans preach the gospel to unbelievers? Is that the general belief of primitive baptists?

I read a Primitive Baptist website that said this:
SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT PRIMITIVE BAPTIST
We do object to the common idea of missions; namely, that eternal salvation is brought to individuals by the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel does not bring salvation but rather reveals salvation. It is "the savior of death unto death; and... of life unto life" (II Corinthians 2:16).
... "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Some people believe that a person cannot be saved unless he hears and accepts the Gospel. This belief completely damns anyone who has not heard the Gospel, even if his failure to hear it was because no one preached it to him. Is it reasonable to assume that God would predicate salvation on a belief such as this? Someone might say that if a person never hears the Gospel, he is not held accountable and will therefore be saved automatically. If this is so, why send preachers anywhere? If a preacher goes to a country where the Gospel is heard for the first time, some will believe and some will not. Those who do not believe are said to be not saved and will go to hell. If we leave the preacher home, all of them would be saved. Can God's plan of salvation have this many holes in it? No, the Bible tells us "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..." (Revelation 5:9). Since God has a people in every kindred and tongue and people and nation, certainly their salvation does not depend upon a preacher's reaching them with the Gospel, but it depends upon the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT PRIMITIVE BAPTIST


That says to me that they do not believe in preaching the gospel as a means of evangelism.

3. DO YOU BELIEVE IN MISSIONS?


Primitive Baptists do believe in missions. What is a missionary? Is he a preacher - or a minister of the Gospel? Primitive Baptists believe in God-called ministers of the Gospel and if a missionary is a preacher, we believe in missionaries. Primitive Baptists do believe in preaching the Gospel in all nations (Matthew 28:19),

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why would we be categorized as Calvinists? We don’t study Calvin in any capacity. We don’t baby baptize, nor do we believe in covenant theology. We don’t murder our opponents or promote government theocracy. We don’t start as RC protesting their religious system. So why would you think we are Calvinists?

 

[Piper]

So now my posts are being deleted. I quoted a man using cuss words and he was allowed to edit his vulgarity? Double standard.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I still don't see the difference in terms of Calvinism itself.

Calvinism itself does not hold Preservation as described in the article.

Calvinists do not view salvation as being mediated by the church.

The article is correct that most Calvinists hold to justification by faith alone (confusing justification with salvation). But this is not Calvinism (it is a doctrine of justification).

Some Calvinists affirm "double predestination", but most do not.

Calvinists differ on "absolute predestination".

I appreciate differences you mention, but they are not differences with Calvinism.


Also, the article confuses "Protestant" with coming from the RCC. Not all Protestants were members of the RCC (what made these Christians "Protestant" is that they opposed (or protested) RCC doctrine rather than embracing it.

That is why Anabaptists during the 15th and 16th century were Protestants even though they never were a part of the RCC.


It seems by reading materials online that Primitive Baptists do meet the definition of "Calvinist" as used by most Christians, but they do not meet their own definition.

Then you do not understand PB’s or appreciate there utter revolution in being lumped in with Calvinists. Explain to me where you see PB’s as Calvinists.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have seen some on this forum who identify as PB who basically say they do not believe in evangelism, all the while dancing around the question.

What is the matter with me? If you believe that, you are definitely disobedient to Scripture.

Spoken like a true Calvinist !

 

[Piper]

3. DO YOU BELIEVE IN MISSIONS?


Primitive Baptists do believe in missions. What is a missionary? Is he a preacher - or a minister of the Gospel? Primitive Baptists believe in God-called ministers of the Gospel and if a missionary is a preacher, we believe in missionaries. Primitive Baptists do believe in preaching the Gospel in all nations (Matthew 28:19),

Did not answer the question. Just re-quoted the same website. That is not clear. Answer me for yourself. Do you believe that it is necessary to preach the gospel to unbelievers? Am I called to personally evangelize my neighbor?