Featured What is the Revelation and How Should Christians Read it

@taisto the context does not support your view.
1] "men" is not found in the Greek text
2] context shows that it is the flesh of the Kings and their armies that the birds eat. Rev 19:18-21
3] since not all people are part of the armies then we would have a number of people that were not killed.
4] if you say all were killed then where would you put a 2-3 billion person army

So your Amill view faces some serious problems in trying to align with the biblical text.

 

The text supports me.
You are looking for an excuse so your house of cards doesn't crumble.
Since God kills all the unregenerate in Revelation 19, in pre-trib/mill world, the people in a literal 1000 year reign (it cannot be 999 or 1001 years, only an exact 1000) will be entirely holy. Yet, at the end of 1000 years we have a countless horde of people who come against the people of God yet again.

Pre-trib/mill has to account for this. Your method is to say that all the translators (including the KJV) got it wrong.

 

You keep saying that the text supports your view but you have not shown this via scripture.

You keep saying that your view is correct but you do not use scripture to support your contention. Why did you not respond to post # 80. By just using the text as written it shows that your view is invalid.

What I said was that ""men" is not found in the Greek text" so when any translation adds it to the text it is just a editors choice. I do find it odd that you a stuck on the idea that men should be read into the text and yet you ignore all the rest of the text that shows your Amill view to be wrong. Did you not see post # 80 or are you just going to ignore it?

You said God kills all the unregenerate in Rev 19 but the context does not support your view does it

The birds were to eat who’s flesh?

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

So we see 1] the beast, 2] Kings, 3] their armies {captains, mighty men, flesh of all}

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Beast & false prophet thrown into LOF so they are not present

Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So what we have is the Kings & their armies that were killed as the beast and the false prophet are in the LOF

I do not know of any army that has 16 yr olds in it, do you? So if only those younger than 16 go into the 1000 yr reign of Christ that would still be millions of people don't you think. So this would account for the horde's of people living at the end of the 1000 yr reign of Christ.

So you see @taisto you have to account for the fact the scriptures read in context do not support your view. You may cherry pick a verse here and there that seem to support you but when you do that it is not the bible you are trusting but yourself.

 

Read the text, yet again, Silverhair, until you can accept what God is clearly telling you. I will quote in the KJV so that all the whiners can see and accept.

(Revelation 19:13-18)

He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: “Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared. Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.”

All humanity is in fact...all (universal) humanity.

 

Context @taisto context. As long as you refuse to read Revelation verses in context you will be in error. As the old saying goes "None are so blind as those that refuse to see"

That is the issue that you face, it is not the KJV but the Greek that you need to follow.

Rev 19:13 καὶG2532 περιβεβλημένοςG4016 ἱμάτιονG2440 βεβαμμένονG911 αἵματι,G129 καὶG2532 κέκληταιG2564 τὸG3588 ὄνομαG3686 αὐτοῦG846 ὉG3588 λόγοςG3056 τοῦG3588 θεοῦ.G2316
Rev 19:14 ΚαὶG2532 τὰG3588 στρατεύματαG4753 [τὰ]G3588 ἐνG1722 τῷG3588 οὐρανῷG3772 ἠκολούθειG190 αὐτῷG846 ἐφ᾽G1909 ἵπποιςG2462 λευκοῖςG3022 ἐνδεδυμένοιG1746 βύσσινονG1039 λευκὸνG3022 καθαρόν.G2513
Rev 19:15 καὶG2532 ἐκG1537 τοῦG3588 στόματοςG4750 αὐτοῦG846 ἐκπορεύεταιG1607 ῥομφαίαG4501 ὀξεῖα,G3691 ἵναG2443 ἐνG1722 αὐτῇG846 πατάξῃG3960 τὰG3588 ἔθνη,G1484 καὶG2532 αὐτὸςG846 ποιμανεῖG4165 αὐτοὺςG846 ἐνG1722 ῥάβδῳG4464 σιδηρᾷ·G4603 καὶG2532 αὐτὸςG846 πατεῖG3961 τὴνG3588 ληνὸνG3025 τοῦG3588 οἴνουG3631 τοῦG3588 θυμοῦG2372 τῆςG3588 ὀργῆςG3709 τοῦG3588 θεοῦG2316 τοῦG3588 παντοκράτορος.G3841
Rev 19:16 καὶG2532 ἔχειG2192 ἐπὶG1909 τὸG3588 ἱμάτιονG2440 καὶG2532 ἐπὶG1909 τὸνG3588 μηρὸνG3382 αὐτοῦG846 ὄνομαG3686 γεγραμμένονG1125 ΒασιλεὺςG935 βασιλέωνG935 καὶG2532 ΚύριοςG2962 κυρίων.G2962
Rev 19:17 ΚαὶG2532 εἶδονG1492 ἕναG1520 ἄγγελονG32 ἑστῶταG2476 ἐνG1722 τῷG3588 ἡλίῳG2246 καὶG2532 ἔκραξενG2896 [ἐν]G1722 φωνῇG5456 μεγάλῃG3173 λέγωνG3004 πᾶσινG3956 τοῖςG3588 ὀρνέοιςG3732 τοῖςG3588 πετομένοιςG4072 ἐνG1722 μεσουρανήματιG3321 ΔεῦτεG1205 συνάχθητεG4863 εἰςG1519 τὸG3588 δεῖπνονG1173 τὸG3588 μέγαG3173 τοῦG3588 θεοῦ,G2316
Rev 19:18 ἵναG2443 φάγητεG5315 σάρκαςG4561 βασιλέωνG935 καὶG2532 σάρκαςG4561 χιλιάρχωνG5506 καὶG2532 σάρκαςG4561 ἰσχυρῶνG2478 καὶG2532 σάρκαςG4561 ἵππωνG2462 καὶG2532 τῶνG3588 καθημένωνG2521 ἐπ᾽G1909 αὐτούς,G846 καὶG2532 σάρκαςG4561 πάντωνG3956 ἐλευθέρωνG1658 τεG5037 καὶG2532 δούλωνG1401 καὶG2532 μικρῶνG3398 καὶG2532 μεγάλων.G3173 Alford, Henry - The Greek Testament + Strong's

Rev 19:18 ἵνα That G2443 CONJ φάγητε Ye May Eat G5315 V-2AAS-2P σάρκας Flesh G4561 N-APF βασιλέων Of Kings, G935 N-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ σάρκας Flesh G4561 N-APF χιλιάρχων Of Chief Captains, G5506 N-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ σάρκας Flesh G4561 N-APF ἰσχυρῶν Of Strong Men, G2478 A-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ σάρκας Flesh G4561 N-APF ἵππων Of Horses G2462 N-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ τῶν Of Those Who G3588 T-GPM καθημένων Sit G2521 V-PNP-GPM ἐπ' On G1909 PREP αὐτῶν Them, G846 P-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ σάρκας Flesh G4561 N-APF πάντων Of All, G3956 A-GPM ἐλευθέρων Free G1658 A-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ δούλων Bond, G1401 N-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ μικρῶν Small G3398 A-GPM καὶ And G2532 CONJ μεγάλων Great. G3173 A-GPM Stephanus Textus Receptus

Rev 19:18 does not refer to all humanity as you seem to think. The context which you want to ignore tells us that the " flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great." is the flesh of "kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders, flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great." in other words the army. Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army.

All those that had come against the Lord and His army were doomed, "both free and slave, both small and great."

The beast & false prophet were thrown into the LOF and the rest {the Kings & their armies} were killed and the birds ate their flesh.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet ...These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest {the Kings & their armies} were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

See how reading things in context will clear up your misunderstanding of a passage.

 

Text, Silverhair, text.
The context includes "all humanity."

I acknowledge that Kings and armies will be destroyed, but the text goes much deeper and you will not acknowledge this.

You refuse to accept what Revelation 19 is saying because it makes your position so much less stable and you cannot admit you have an exegetical problem in your pre-mill teaching.

At some point you should acknowledge that forcing a linear reading onto an apocalyptic genre is not a good method of exegesis. But, you are just planning on digging your feet ever deeper in the sand.

 

@taisto I do not understand why you will not just trust what the text says? You are sounding like a Gnostic, "the text goes much deeper" you are looking for some hidden meaning. Why is that? The text is clear and I am sorry that you need to find something in it that is not there.

Taisto in post # 80 I went through the relevant verses that show your view is wrong. You keep saying your view is correct yet the text proves otherwise. Show me how you can read those verses in context to support your view and while your at it show me where I have an exegetical problem in what I wrote?

When you read your bible how do you decide what is true and not true? You can't say that you use a literal approach to the text as you have shown already that you do not do that. A thousand years is not really a thousand years. So the only other option, as I see it, is that you trust in yourself to decide what is true or false or what words really mean.

What you have been taught by your mentor(s) but is simply false and demonstratably false but you hold to it with a vice grip that no one but God could remove. Your general accusations are meaningless. It is time you show us that you have actually read the passage in context.

 

I do not understand why you do not trust what the text says. I have shared it using multiple translations of which every translation is the same. All human flesh that is in opposition to God is killed and fed to the vultures. It is the great Day of the Lord. The time when the earth is purified of all evil.

Since you will not accept the text, we have nothing to discuss.
You have planted your feet in the sand. So be it.

 

You are reading into the text what is not there Taisto. Why do you not trust what the Greek text says?

@taisto I do trust what the text says. Why have you not show how your view is supported by the biblical text in context. Oh that's because it does not do so.

You said Rev 19, 20, & 21 support your view so why do you not show how it does. I have shown you why it does not and all you say is nope do not agree.

In the Amillennial positions, which you hold, one must spiritualize a large amount of Scripture. Whereas in the Premillennial view Scripture is taken literally, i.e., according to its normal, more obvious meaning.

As I said you are using an "allegorical" or "spiritual" method to reach your conclusions.
It is that method of interpreting a text or passage of Scripture that regards the literal sense as merely the vehicle for a secondary, more spiritual, and more profound sense. "In this method the historical import is either denied or ignored and the emphasis is placed entirely on a secondary sense so that the original words or events have little or no significance." J. Dwight Pentecost

"According to this method the literal and historical sense of Scripture is completely ignored, and every word and event is made an allegory of some kind either to escape theological difficulties or to maintain certain peculiar views…" Charles T. Fritsch

Taisto show your work that supports your view. You say Rev 19-21 does that then provide the evidence. You don't do it because you can not.

 

What am I reading into the text? I will quote the text one more time.

(Revelation 19:17-18)
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, shouting to the vultures flying high in the sky: “Come! Gather together for the great banquet God has prepared. Come and eat the flesh of kings, generals, and strong warriors; of horses and their riders; and of all humanity, both free and slave, small and great.”

What am I reading into what the angel says?

You can believe whatever you want. I, however, am not reading anything into this text.

 

Taisto what do you not understand about context? What do you not understand about the words, "the Greek text does not support your view"?

Remember your the one that said Rev 19, 20 & 21 supported your view but when I went through them it shows that your view is wrong. Look at post # 80 Taisto, it's your turn, show me where those verses support your view. You will not do it because they do not support you.

You keep saying that the Amill view is correct so give me the proof that will convince me or for that matter would convince anyone. Your like the little boy that cried wolf, no no one is going to believe you anymore.

According to {your} method the literal and historical sense of Scripture is completely ignored, and every word and event is made an allegory of some kind either to escape theological difficulties or to maintain certain peculiar views. Charles T. Fritsch

You keep asking others to prove their case and yet you do not hold yourself to the same standard. If you want to hold to that view that is your choice but at least admit that the text does not support your view.

 

I understand the context very well. The context shows us that not only are the armies of all the world nations that Satan deceives killed, but all humanity is killed. This is the judgment of God upon all who stood in opposition to Him. That is the context. But you are ignoring the context. You absolutely refuse to admit what the text is telling you. Accept what the text says.

 

And what lie was that?

 

You said Eve was a sinner before Adam disobeyed God.

 

Well I see that you are not willing to actually look at the context so as to find the truth. You have to read into the text what is not there. It does not even suggest that all humanity is killed yet you will hold to your view with a grip of iron. I would suggest that you take your own advice Taisto. Accept what the text says

 

@taisto I see you like to quote Rev 19:17-18 from the NLT in support of your view and say I should accept what it says but do you accept what the NLT says in Rev 20:1-6. It tells us that Satan was bound for 1000 yrs but you do not accept that as it is written do you. Why is that?

Your allegorical Interpretation of scripture allows you to have the bible says whatever you need it to say.

 

One point here where you do contradict yourself. If all on earth have the mark, and they come against those descending from heaven, where are you at that point? You claim you are on earth with the mark, and not with those descending from heaven.

Some claim they are protected somewhere without the mark. Those would be all the beheaded. Those beheaded are the only humans on earth without the mark. The beheaded do not return on horses among those descending from heaven. Their heads and bodies are still on the earth. They have not even been judged nor resurrected at that point. Being beheaded is not enduring to the end. Taking the mark is the only way one is going to endure to the point they face that army descending from heaven.

 

If the armies are destroyed in Revelation 19, who is destroyed in Revelation 14:9-20

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If all on earth are killed that take the mark, who is left on the earth? If they don't have the mark are they redeemed then?

The point of the final harvest in both Matthew 13 and 25 is that all of humanity is removed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is the only way Daniel 9:24 can be fulfilled. Many here think that verse only applies to the church during their alleged millennium, the here and now, where the church is now Israel ruling over the world, in Christ.

Even pre-trib pre-mill and post trib pre-mill have the church replacing Israel and reigning with Christ for a thousand years.

The church is not coming to earth during this current creation. If that were true, all the church currently in heaven would have homes on earth and ruling from the earth.

Post trib people cannot explain the point, but pre-trib rapture people should understand that the church is removed once and for all time. Those living in the Millennial Kingdom on earth are the sheep (Israel) and the wheat (all other nations) gathered after the church is removed. They are not lost sinners allowed to spread sin and death on the earth. The sheep and wheat are redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and multiply and fill the earth with redeemed people from conception. Scripture does not give us a third group of fence sitters who God lets destroy the millennium. The sheep and wheat make up that army on white horses coming to live on the earth for a thousand years. These are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom gathered after the church is removed. Even the goats and tares are removed from the earth, and tossed into the LOF, before the mark of the beast is received.

The issue I have with pre-trib adherents is they seem to deny that Jesus and the angels are on the earth, and the only ones gathering the final harvest. The church is not gathering this harvest. The only time we don't see this harvest on earth is when the sheep and wheat are waiting on the sea of glass before the throne. Revelation 15 points out they have the victory over the beast and the mark. They are the ones on white horses having the victory over the beast and all the armies on earth with the mark. There cannot be a third group hiding out anywhere else. There are only those with the mark and those waiting on the sea of glass without the mark.