• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Landmarkism: What is it?

Status
Not open for further replies.

taisto

Well-Known Member
You can't have it.

Jesus won't let me give you that alteration to the text.



Reconstructing this wording that says, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost", from Matthew 3:11, to fabricate its transformation into a completely unrevealed, unwritten, unheard-of new combination of words, "Holy Spirit Baptism", is a departure of too great a magnitude from where you found it.

There is no debate as to the meaning of a fictitious alteration to the Word of God, right before our very eyes.
...



Then, why don't any of the passages you quoted mention the Holy Spirit?

You you should probably know before you try to flagrantly dispense with the literal "one baptism" in the Bible, as being "water baptism", and toss it into an imaginary non-existent oblivion and omitting it from the Bible,

in order for you to substitute your imaginary non-existent newly formed and created "baptism" you call the, "immersion that the Holy Spirit does when he places us into Christ at the moment of redemption", that has suddenly appeared out of oblivion and has never even been thought to be employed by the writers of the Bible in a figurative way, to associate it with redemption in any way:

In a literal sense the Bible teaches only one baptism, that is, one kind of baptism, as a New Testament ordinance.

This is immersion in water of a born-again believer by the ministry of a New Testament church for the purpose of providing a symbol or figure of the faith they are professing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Along with other no less than Divinely Authoritative uses of the word "baptism", as being "water baptism" listed below, such as in Matthew 3:11;
"I indeed baptize you with water",

that text and those below describe the one water baptism of the New Testament to be authorized as a continuing ordinance of God.

First administered by the John the Baptist on direct command from heaven,

it was continued under the direction of Jesus by the disciples constituting the first church founded by Jesus Christ,

and finally committed to that same church for administration to the end of the age.

"The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?. . ."
(Matthew 21:25.)

A right answer to this question must lead to a recognition of the Divine Authority of Jesus as Head of His churches and away from those who are the head of an effort directed at usurping His Authority in replaceing His Word with their own contrived words of man.

Jesus Christ said that there was "not a greater prophet"
(of God, obviously) "than John the Baptist."


27 "This is he, of whom it is written,
Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
which shall prepare thy way before thee.


28 "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women
there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist:


John the Baptist was "a man sent from God".

John 1:6; "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John."

The Sovereign Lord God of the Universe,
God the Father, sent John the Baptist to "baptize".


John 1:33; "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,
the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

Jesus had All Power and The Authority of God in Heaven and Earth.

Matthew 28:18; "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus compared and equated His Authority as being the Authority of God
and that Authority was given to Him from God,
to the Authority in "the baptism of John."

Mark 11:27 "And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,


28 "And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things?
and who gave thee this authority to do these things?


29 "And Jesus answered and said unto them,
I will also ask of you one question, and answer me,
and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.


30 "The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

31 "And they reasoned with themselves, saying,
If we shall say, From heaven; he will say,
Why then did ye not believe him?


32 "But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people:
for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.


33 "And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell.

"And Jesus answering saith unto them,
Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things."

Jesus Christ called "the baptism of John", "the Counsel of God."

29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans,
justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Luke 7:30; "But the Pharisees and lawyers
rejected the counsel of God against themselves,
being not baptized of him.

Jesus walked 70 miles to be baptized by John the Baptist.


Matthew 3:13 "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John,
to be baptized of him.


Jesus said that for Him to be baptized by John the Baptist
fulfilled "all righteousness".


Matthew 3:14 "But John forbad him, saying,
I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?


15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."


The only appearance of The Triune Godhead
manifested together in the Bible
is at the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist,

where the Holy Spirit witnessed to His approval of it
when John saw, "the Spirit of God" descended on Jesus "like a dove,
and lighting upon him"


and God the Father Personally voiced His approval of Jesus
having been baptized by John the Baptist, from Heaven itself,
"saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."


John 3:15b; "Then he suffered him.

16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized,
went up straightway out of the water:


"and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him,

and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove,
and lighting upon him:


17 "And lo a voice from heaven,
saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."


I'm going to say as a Bible believer,
that I have to go with
John's water baptism being the one literal baptism
referred to as "one baptism", in Ephesians 4, as being my standpoint
of Biblical Christianity,

and that the replacement of God's Institution of water baptism
with a counterfeit null and void forgery on its face
has to place you and those who influenced you on this
in direct opposition to the Bible record and the Triune Godhead.
Where is the term "water" used in the passages I provided? You cannot force water on the word baptism. The term means to dip into or immerse. It was used for bread or other foods being dipped into a sauce.

So, we are back to whether we are immersed into Christ by the Holy Spirit or by water. If you claim water, then you will need to concede baptismal regeneration by water and applaud Lutheran, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox on their teaching.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Reconstructing this wording that says, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost", from Matthew 3:11, to fabricate its transformation into a completely unrevealed, unwritten, unheard-of new combination of words, "Holy Spirit Baptism", is a departure of too great a magnitude from where you found it.
It is obvious that baptism is most often water baptism (the Eunice telling Phillip "Hey, Dude, there's some water" kinda sums that up).

So I agree, of course, that baptism indicates immersion in water.

I am not sure, however, that "Holy Ghost baptism" is a stretch from "baptized with the Holy Ghost". I just don't see the difficulty on this one.


For my understanding -

Insofar as the baptism of John vs the baptism in Christ, you are not saying they are the same....right?


Acts 19:3–6 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@Alan Gross ,

For clarity (my question may not be as clear as I wanted in the last post) :

What is the difference between John's baptism and baptism in Christ?

Why didn't John's baptism count (why did those people need to be baptized in Christ)?

When we baptize are we baptized with John's baptism or are we baptized in Christ?
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In The Baptist Heritage, H. Leon McBeth lists these positions as illustrative of Landmarkism’s stance on the church:

  1. Baptist churches are the only true churches in the world.
  2. The true church is a local, visible institution.
  3. The churches and the kingdom of God are coterminous.
  4. There must be no “pulpit affiliation” with non-Baptists.
  5. Only a church can do churchly acts.
  6. Baptist churches have always existed in every age by an unbroken historical succession.
As you can see, Landmarkism places much emphasis on the practice and position of the church. The extent of those positions has led many to dub them “Baptist Briders”, as their belief that only Baptist churches are the true churches and therefore only they must make up the Bride of Christ.

Landmarkism: The Original Fundamental Baptists? – BaptistBasics.org

This article helps me understand why my dad, an Independent Fundamental Church of America (IFCA) proponent, was so put off against being a Baptist. I have no experience with Landmarkism so when the name came up it was something I hadn't heard of before.
Landmarkism is horse feathers.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
@Alan Gross ,

For clarity (my question may not be as clear as I wanted in the last post) :

What is the difference between John's baptism and baptism in Christ?

Why didn't John's baptism count (why did those people need to be baptized in Christ)?

When we baptize are we baptized with John's baptism or are we baptized in Christ?
John’s baptism was of “repentance of sins” John had a transitional ministry that taught a person could have their sins forgiven without going to the Temple and killing a goat.

He “paved the way” for Jesus’s ministry where Jesus forgave people’s sins based on faith.

Christian baptism is into the death of Jesus.. dead buried (immersed) and resurrected (symbolically.)

John’s baptism is not the same as Christian baptism.

peace to you
 

37818

Well-Known Member
John’s baptism is not the same as Christian baptism.
Wrong.
Acts of the Apostles 19:4, ". . . John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. . . ." Who baptized Jesus' first disciples?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Wrong.
Acts of the Apostles 19:4, ". . . John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. . . ." Who baptized Jesus' first disciples?
No, I’m correct. John’s baptism was not Christian baptism. John pointed to Jesus, he paved the way for a forgiveness of sins that didn’t require going to the Temple and killing a goat.

Do you think Jesus was baptized into His own death by John? Scripture only mentions two disciples of John that became disciples of Jesus, so we can assume John baptized those two.

If John’s baptism was the same as as Christian baptism, there would be no issue in Acts, and no reason for “another” baptism.

peace to you
 

37818

Well-Known Member
If John’s baptism was the same as as Christian baptism, there would be no issue in Acts, and no reason for “another” baptism.
You didn't understand. John explained Jesus would give the Holy Spirit, Mark 1:8. The disciples Paul spoke to had not understood. Per Acts of the Apostles 19:1-3. So they were re-baptized, per Acts of the Apostles 19:4-5.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
When I was in class Leon taught about the Whitsitt controversy. He mentioned that Whitsitt taught the same thing as he was teaching. Landmarkism was an attempt to parallel the apostolic succession of the RCC. Leon mentioned the problem is crossing some heretics. The document one may want to look at is "The Trail of Blood". So much for the religious politicians.
 

taisto

Well-Known Member
When I was in class Leon taught about the Whitsitt controversy. He mentioned that Whitsitt taught the same thing as he was teaching. Landmarkism was an attempt to parallel the apostolic succession of the RCC. Leon mentioned the problem is crossing some heretics. The document one may want to look at is "The Trail of Blood". So much for the religious politicians.
I was thinking similarly that it was its own version of apostolic succession.

Now, to be fair, we all can (theoretically) trace our faith back to the apostles or early disciples (if a genealogy had been kept) so there is a succession. Hebrews 12:1-2 presents this great legacy of the faith that is our great cloud of witnesses. But, when a group, like the RCC (and it seems the primitive baptists ?) comes along and claims spokesmanship for God by apostolic succession, that seems ripe for a massive fallacy as traditions are created that the apostles never claimed.
Is Landmarkism a peculiar view of the primitive baptist sect?
 

taisto

Well-Known Member
'Says a lot'.
There are many sects in Christianity. Note, I do not say cult.
Definition of a sect:
What Is a Religious Sect?

A sect is a religious group that is a subset of a religion or denomination. Sects typically share the same beliefs as the religion that is their foundation but will have marked differences in some areas.

Sects Versus Cults
The terms "sect" and "cults are often used interchangeably, but this is incorrect. Cults are small, extreme groups, and are often marked by corrupt leaders and intense, manipulative, or unethical practices.

Sects are not cults, in most circumstances. They are just religious offshoots of other groups. But because of how often the two terms are confused, many people who belong to sects describe themselves as being part of a small denomination, to avoid negative stigma.

What Is a Religious Sect and How Does It Differ From Denominations?

Do you trace your direct heritage all the way back to the apostles? If so, do you have the lineage documented for us to see?

Do primitive baptists claim landmarkism?
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are many sects in Christianity. Note, I do not say cult.
Definition of a sect:


Do you trace your direct heritage all the way back to the apostles? If so, do you have the lineage documented for us to see?

Do primitive baptists claim landmarkism?

9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt 3

7 point Calvinism
 

taisto

Well-Known Member
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt 3

7 point Calvinism
That's a nice verse. I don't know why you posted it.

I showed you how I use the word, sect, so you know it's not a negative term. I asked you this:

Do you trace your direct heritage all the way back to the apostles? If so, do you have the lineage documented for us to see?

Do primitive baptists claim landmarkism?


Do you have an answer?
 

taisto

Well-Known Member
That doesn’t surprise me. Anything outside of your ridged hardcore Calvinist/Puritan/ Presbyterian box you’re incapable of grasping.
When you're done with your rant, would you actually answer the question that is pertinent to Landmarkism?

Do you trace your direct heritage all the way back to the apostles? If so, do you have the lineage documented for us to see?

Do primitive baptists claim landmarkism?


Do you have an answer?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
You didn't understand. John explained Jesus would give the Holy Spirit, Mark 1:8. The disciples Paul spoke to had not understood. Per Acts of the Apostles 19:1-3. So they were re-baptized, per Acts of the Apostles 19:4-5.
Well, I think I understand completely.

Salvation is not about “understanding completely” it is about a relationship. There is no such thing as “rebaptism”. You are baptized into the death of Jesus, or you are not. John’s baptism was of repentance. That is not Christian baptism.

Peace to you
 

taisto

Well-Known Member
Well, I think I understand completely.

Salvation is not about “understanding completely” it is about a relationship. There is no such thing as “rebaptism”. You are baptized into the death of Jesus, or you are not. John’s baptism was of repentance. That is not Christian baptism.

Peace to you
Who baptizes you into Christ Jesus?

Is it the Holy Spirit or is it your pastor/friend who dips you under the water at whatever location the fellowship has chosen?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Who baptizes you into Christ Jesus?

Is it the Holy Spirit or is it your pastor/friend who dips you under the water at whatever location the fellowship has chosen?
Immersion into water is a public display that symbolically represents what has already occurred, the person’s death, burial resurrection as a new person in Christ, imo

peace to you
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top