Featured Many will say, Lord, Lord

There are a number of factors that it requires. Any one of them is an essential. Which one stands out to you? To me that salvation can only be received as a gift, that none can merit by any means. see Matthew 7:22.

 

@Judith said:
"It all boils down to are we sorry/broken enough over our sins against God and do we want to get our hearts right with Him or not. Let us be sure that tomorrow does not belong to us."

What do we read in the Bible?
(Ephesians 2:4-10)
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

So, salvation is not whether we are sorry or broken enough. Salvation is whether God has made us alive with Christ by grace and brought us to believe in repentance of our sins.

You can beat and flagellate yourself to a pulp and you won't be sorry or broken enough. You will still be a sinner who deserves hell. Your only salvation is God's gracious choice to save you according to his will and kindness. May God bring you to faith.

 

An important essay
https://tms.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tmsj24e.pdf

 

You have the order of salvation mixed up @taisto. Your bible of choice the NLT shows you the order and you changed it. Why? "... God saved you by his grace when you believed...." Eph 2:8 NLT Not so that you would believe.

You have put salvation before belief so again I ask you, why? When you say "it is not whether we are sorry or broken enough" are you saying that it is the proud and arrogant ones that will be saved by God? The bible tells us "...GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." 1Pe 5:5 NASB

But I see you did get it right when you said "...salvation is God's gracious choice to save you according to his will and kindness". As Paul said when speaking of salvation "...this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16 NLT So we see that the will of God is to save those that believe in His son.

 

Jesus said to them, “depart from Me… I never knew you”.

Salvation is about relationship with Christ. If He “knows” you, then you belong to Him and will be saved on that day of judgment.

peace to you

 

SUPERB, JUDITH!

WAY TO WITNESS AND TESTIFY FOR YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR!!

 

Why would I have God before man? Because that's what the Bible says.

(Ephesians 2:4-5)
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

 

I did not ask you if God was before man did I? That is not in doubt.

What I asked and you have ignored is why do you have the order of salvation reversed. You say man has to be saved prior to belief but even your bible of choice the NLT shows you that you are wrong.

Your still missing or more likely ignoring what the bible says.

"... God saved you by his grace when you believed...." Eph 2:8 NLT Not so that you would believe.

Are you saying you are saved before you believe? That seems to be what you are arguing for.

Speaking of salvation "...this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16 NLT So we see that the will of God is to save those that believe in His son.

I have said many times that we are saved by God because of our faith in His risen Son but I have to ask what do you think Eph 2:4-5 means? Do you think it means you were saved at the resurrection of Christ? In other words were you, Taisto, saved before you believed or in fact were even born?

 

The text shows you the order, Silverhair.
John 6 tells you that God must draw you to himself, first, before you can respond. This is how Ephesians 2 explains it in the quote I provided.

You insist that man must first respond to God in belief before God redeems him. The problem you have is that none of the texts you quote ever demand that order. You assume that order because you cannot accept the reality that God has chosen his adopted children before the foundation of the world and he has chosen exactly at which time in history that he will redeem them from death to life.
Instead, you insist that God can only be aware of what man is going to decide, but man, according to your logic, must choose on his own to believe God first, before God can do anything. God, I'm your view, cannot save a person until that person actively believes.
This is where you demand that humans could actually save themselves by observing nature alone. You cannot accept that Paul was right when he tells you in Romans 1 that man will 100% of the time, worship a created thing and not God the Son, when man looks at nature. You cannot accept Romans 3 when Paul quotes the Psalms and tells you that no one seeks after God. You cannot accept the idea that God determines whom He will redeem. If you're like other free will people, you think that God is unjust if God determines whom He will save. You cannot fathom the idea that man always chooses to hide from God, until God first draws them to himself, makes them alive with Christ, and gives them the very faith they need to believe and repent. That teaching, which is very much biblical and shown in and throughout scripture is rejected by you. You go immediately to believe and declare that man can believe without any work of God beforehand. In fact, you despise a God who would actively work beforehand.

So, it is you who does not accept what Ephesians 2:4-5 means. You reject God doing something before man does something.

 

Sliverhair thinks God is unjust if He chooses people to save. He talks around Romans 9 and tries to make it only about Jews when the actual context shows that our redemption is entirely in God's hands. Left to ourselves we would put up an idol and bow down.

 

Just a few corrections to your script but important ones. Your comments will be in blue text.

You insist that man must first respond to God in belief before God redeems him.
Actually the bible tells us that
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

in Romans 1 that man will 100% of the time, worship a created thing and not God the Son,
Did you not read this verse?
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The text does not say that no one will worship God, you have to read that into the text
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
In other words some choose to ignore the truth. It does not say all men choose to ignore the truth or even that those that did choose to ignore the truth will always choose to do so.

You assume that order because you cannot accept the reality that God has chosen his adopted children before the foundation of the world and he has chosen exactly at which time in history that he will redeem them from death to life.
What you are missing is that God, before the foundation of the world, determined that only those that were in Christ would be His children. We are only holy and blameless when we are in Christ.

You cannot accept Romans 3 when Paul quotes the Psalms and tells you that no one seeks after God
Taisto you fail in your understanding of the text when you stop reading. Paul was speaking to the Jews and pointing out that they could not depend upon there being Jews to save them as he say in Rom 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God" Those that choose to trust in keeping the law to save them will be judged by the law.

Further if you continued and read Rom 3:21-30 you would see that God has shown us the condition of salvation. "...righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction" Rom 3:22 "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Rom 3:26 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom 3:28 And we know that man is able to seek the kingdom of God that is unless you think Christ was be disingenuous when He said this "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." Mat 6:33

You cannot accept the idea that God determines whom He will redeem. If you're like other free will people, you think that God is unjust if God determines whom He will save
he Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Of course God determines who He will save and He has determined to save those that freely trust in His risen Son and we know that He has determined that salvation is available to all not just a select few. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." Joh 3:16 We know that God's plan for one's salvation was through faith in in Son. "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer." Gal 3:8-9
As you can see from a prior quote those of us who are "free will people" do not think God is unjust in setting the condition of salvation, He is God after all. "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Rom 3:26

You cannot fathom the idea that man always chooses to hide from God, until God first draws them to himself, makes them alive with Christ, and gives them the very faith they need to believe and repent.
So am I to conclude that the work of the Holy Spirit is not drawing people to God through conviction of their sin? And what do we say about the preaching of the gospel, does that not draw people to God and lest we forget what Christ said in Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." So we see that God draws all men not just some men. Now you have made the claim that God has to give men faith so as to believe. What scripture do you base that upon? We can see in the bible where men asked what was needed. "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Act 16:30 and we see what they were told "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Act 16:31 But what we do not see is someone being told that could do nothing as God had to give them faith.

So we see your whole post is just a strawman argument. You have built a false image of those that freely trust in Christ so you can then argue against that image.

 

You gotta be made alive before you can be sealed.
You keep ignoring all the context surrounding the verses. Why is it that you entirely ignore everything around verse 13 of Ephesians 1? Because the rest shows you how badly you misunderstand verse 13.

Your whole post is a strawman argument, Sliverhair.

 

Perhaps you should take your own advice and actually look at the context.

 

I will attempt to respond to each section.

As I believe AustinC mentioned, one cannot be sealed until one has been made alive and given the capacity to believe. This is precisely addressed in Ephesians 2:1-10.

I do read these verses. You seem to ignore the teaching that one cannot believe until and unless God causes them to believe. Without God's quickening, the soul will remain dead and the man will continue to worship the creation, not the creator.
Romans 1 is clear. Romans 3 doubles down on that clarity.

I take this as your agreement with me that we can never choose God on our own accord because we will never want to do so. Only God can cause us to believe and want to follow him. Only in Christ, by the sealing of the Holy Spirit are we made blameless.
Here, it seems we may at least find some agreement.

Paul wrote to the entire church at Rome, made up of both Jew and Gentiles. He is attempting to show them their unity. That both are justified by the faith God has given them, apart from any attempt to be justified by the law.

The condition, then, cannot be met by man. It is met by the gracious gift of faith, given to those who will believe. The text in Romans 3 is very clear. I wonder why you struggle to see this?

The problem is that no one will choose to trust God when God leaves them alone to their own freedom. They will always freely reject Christ. Again, Romans 1 and Romans 3 very clearly tell us this.
We are also told that God will save people from every nation, tribe, and tongue. All the nations have been blessed by a general grace because God has specifically chosen a particular people in every nation, tribe, and tongue. Therefore God keeps his word to Abraham.

Clearly the "all" in John 12 is not the universal world of men. If it were, then every human on the planet would not only hear the gospel, but they would respond to the gospel by believing. Therefore, the drawing goes back to John 6 and John 10 where Jesus clearly tells us that "all" whom the Father has given Him will believe and He will not lose even one. God does, therefore, draw all men to Himself. This is where seeing the whole of God's word is important in interpretation of a particular sentence such as John 12:32.

Where we are at odds is, you demand men to freely believe first, before God can save. I state that men will never freely believe, which means that God will cause all whom He has given to Christ Jesus to believe.

According to Romans 9, God is just in doing what He chooses to do.

It seems we will not agree on this since we look at the same verses, but we view them from different starting points. You view the starting point as man's free will. I view the starting point as God's free will. One of us must be in error.

 

ROFGuffawing....

 

Ephesians 1:12-13, ". . . That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . ."

Hearing comes before believing. What comes between the hearing then believing?

 

Actually that is not what you find in Rom 2:1-10. Read Rom 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" which is just a shortened way of saying what Paul said just a few verses earlier Eph 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Salvation is the gift of God not faith. We are made alive with Christ when we believe not before we believe. So it is not I that insists man must first respond to God in belief before God redeems him. It is the bible. That is why the disciples were told to preach the gospel to the whole world "...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16

If one has to suppress the truth then that means they must understand the truth. And if one understand the truth then they can respond in a positive or negative way. If we went by your words "one cannot believe until and unless God causes them to believe" then those that are in hell are only there because God did not cause them to believe. He could have saved them but He chose not to cause them to believe and they could not overrule Him so they are not responsible for where they are. Which as I pointed out before goes against His stated desire 1Ti 2:3-4 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." So you have God working against Himself, which is illogical.

No, that does not mean we are in agreement. We have many verses that show man has to believe before they are saved, have you not read them? You keep saying God causes one to believe but you have yet to provide one verse in support of your view.

Taisto you need to continue reading in Rom 3 it does not support your view of God giving man faith to believe. You have put salvation before faith and that is not biblical. And again I ask where are your supporting verses for your errant view?

Taisto I have given you a number of verse that show man's free will and you just reject them. I trust in God's free will in which He has granted man the freedom to make real eternal choices whereas you have taken God's free will away from Him and demand that He only act as your man made philosophy requires. I agree one of us has to be in error. So the choice is trust scripture or trust a man made philosophy. I choose the bible.

 

Between physically hearing, that has not been Accompanied by The Holy Spirit,
and Spiritually Enabled believing, is The New Birth of The Holy Spirit.

Physically hearing is also Regenerated in the New Birth, Spiritually Enabling
a Spiritual hearing and Spiritual Belief, at the same time, essentially.

Faith that comes by hearing, is hearing by the Word of God that has been given the Spiritual Ability to hear the Word of God and Spiritually believe it with faith, by the New Birth.

But, you're probably not talking to me.

 

@Alan Gross so you have a person saved before they believe. That is not biblical but I do see most Calvinist's hold to that view. So I have to ask, what is the need of faith under your view?