Conversion?

[taisto]

Actually no I would have to disagree. Note the words "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message" to me that indicates He prays for those unbelievers who will in the future come to Him, those that did believe the gospel message. Since most people that would trust in Christ had not been born yet they could not be considered believers in Christ could they. No one is born as a believer are they? But when they trust in Christ they receive the gift of eternal life.

I agree with Heb 7:24-25 but those verses do not say He only prays for believers. What it does say is that He intercedes for those that believe, those who draw near to God through Him. When Satan accuses believers Christ stands as our advocate and pleads our case.as it were.

It seems you're trying to nuance the passages. Wouldn't God's foreknowledge of who will believe therefore make the prayers particular for those who specifically believe?
If God has no idea who was going to be saved, I could follow your thoughts here, but since God does know, the prayers are particular to those who will believe, regardless of whether they have believed at the time of the prayer.

 

[Silverhair]

It seems you're trying to nuance the passages. Wouldn't God's foreknowledge of who will believe therefore make the prayers particular for those who specifically believe?
If God has no idea who was going to be saved, I could follow your thoughts here, but since God does know, the prayers are particular to those who will believe, regardless of whether they have believed at the time of the prayer.

I would say that you are overlooking the intent of the passages. God in His foreknowledge would know all those that will trust in Christ Jesus but His knowing is not Him causing. We as believers can look back and say that Christ prayed for us in Joh 17:20-21. But Christ looking forward is praying for all so that those that do believe will receive the blessings of unity, peace, love, and eternal glory. This would be in agreement with the desire of God that all men be saved and know the truth. 1Ti 2:3-4

God has not restricted to offer of salvation to a select few so I do not think we should be doing that either.

 

[taisto]

I would say that you are overlooking the intent of the passages. God in His foreknowledge would know all those that will trust in Christ Jesus but His knowing is not Him causing. We as believers can look back and say that Christ prayed for us in Joh 17:20-21. But Christ looking forward is praying for all so that those that do believe will receive the blessings of unity, peace, love, and eternal glory. This would be in agreement with the desire of God that all men be saved and know the truth. 1Ti 2:3-4

God has not restricted to offer of salvation to a select few so I do not think we should be doing that either.

No one, in our dialogue here, is dealing with cause. All we are discussing is the ones for whom Christ is praying for. The text tells us that Jesus is only praying for those whom God, in His foreknowledge, knows will believe. For all others, the prayer is not intended.

Silverhair, all men, whom Jesus prayed for, will believe. God knows this in his foreknowledge and it fulfills his desire in 1 Timothy 2.
A problem you have with 1 Timothy 2 is that you interpret the verse as universalism, then you realize that since not all are universally saved (even though you tell us it's God's will) that means that a man's individual will defeats God's will in regard to salvation. You say that God intentionally accepts defeat because he won't intervene in human will. I say, you have contradicted yourself and make God less than man with your interpretation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is no need to “convert” a man that is already regenerated because he is already converted, which is why he’s already regenerated.

Explain conversion then.

 

[MrW]

Explain conversion then.

Hearing the Gospel brings conviction of sin, and causes faith in the heart.

The person rejects or receives Christ. When/if he believes on Christ, the Holy Spirit converts and regenerates the person and baptizes him or her into the Body of Christ.

 

[tyndale1946]

Hearing the Gospel brings conviction of sin, and causes faith in the heart.

The person rejects or receives Christ. When/if he believes on Christ, the Holy Spirit converts and regenerates the person and baptizes him or her into the Body of Christ.

You're too late... Brother Glen

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[MrW]

You're too late... Brother Glen

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It’s not too late as long as a person is still living.

 

[Silverhair]

No one, in our dialogue here, is dealing with cause. All we are discussing is the ones for whom Christ is praying for. The text tells us that Jesus is only praying for those whom God, in His foreknowledge, knows will believe. For all others, the prayer is not intended.

Silverhair, all men, whom Jesus prayed for, will believe. God knows this in his foreknowledge and it fulfills his desire in 1 Timothy 2.
A problem you have with 1 Timothy 2 is that you interpret the verse as universalism, then you realize that since not all are universally saved (even though you tell us it's God's will) that means that a man's individual will defeats God's will in regard to salvation. You say that God intentionally accepts defeat because he won't intervene in human will. I say, you have contradicted yourself and make God less than man with your interpretation.

Taisto you are reading these verses from a restrictive view as fits your theology while I see them as expansive as fits mine. You say Christ only prays form those that believe but the gospel message is for all or do you restrict that also. Christ prays for the whole world as fits God's desire expressed in 1Ti 2:3-4. The context shows that prayers are to "...be made on behalf of all men" 1Ti 2:1.
Taisto the word “will” should not be taken in the sense of an absolute decree as you seem to be understanding it. God would like all mankind to trust in His son that is His desire but He will not force anyone to do so.

Taisto you have such a negative view of God in your posts. You want to make Him so small and ineffectual. God is sovereign but you do not want to accept that. He can do as He pleases and we see in scripture that He chooses to grant man a free will to make real choices that have real outcomes regarding their eternal future. God has set the condition of salvation, faith in His son, yet you reject this and say man has to be saved first before God causes them to believe.

In your attempt to make God determine all things you have actually made Him less than sovereign. You have made Him subject to the philosophy of man. You have taken His free will away from Him and said He can only act in a certain way, the way your meticulous determinism dictates that He can. I am sorry that you think that way as God is more glorious than your view allows Him to be.

 

[Silverhair]

You're too late... Brother Glen

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Titus3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

These verses to not contradict what MrW said. We all know that we must be born again and what he said states the biblical order. So what do you mean by "You're too late" are you suggesting that one is saved before they believe?

 

[tyndale1946]

These verses to not contradict what MrW said. We all know that we must be born again and what he said states the biblical order. So what do you mean by "You're too late" are you suggesting that one is saved before they believe?

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We were naturally alive and SPIRITUALLY DEAD!... Silverhair... You and MrW tell me the next time you can control the wind!... The LORD works alone... Your both too late... Brother Glen

 

[37818]

. . . when thou art converted, . . .

That Greek compund term is used the New Testament some 35-38 times. CT-TR. Various contexts. KJV - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).

It is not a specialized term.

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We were naturally alive and SPIRITUALLY DEAD!... Silverhair... You and MrW tell me the next time you can control the wind!... The LORD works alone... Your both too late... Brother Glen

Spiritually dead does not mean unable to hear and believe. You do not seem to trust what the bible says This may shock you but even as a spiritually alive redeemed person you, Glen, nor any other Christian can not control the wind.

All those spiritually dead people that heard the gospel message preached to them and chose to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation were redeemed/saved.

Act 10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

Notice the order the word is preached, the people hear, some believe, those that believe have their sins forgiven.

 

[37818]

Spiritually dead does not mean unable to hear and believe.

@tyndale1946 one proof text of a yet lost person who believed in some way turned against the faith, because what he was happy to believe had no root.

How should one have believed differently?

 

[MrW]

The order is clear in Acts 16:31.

 

[Alan Gross]

The order is clear in Acts 16:31.

Of all the times in the Bible that there are things written, one after the other, etc., they are not always in chronological or logical order and they weren't intended to be, or to teach an "order". This one has the order correct, though.

However, is there anything else that is also involved in this order that isn't stated in the text, but is still an essential part of everything that we read that is taking place?

How about the next verse? Vs 32? Have you seen that?

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

And to back up just a second, we see that:

Along with whatever else the jailor knew about God or Jesus Christ or his sin, from all the immediate circumstances surrounding him, such as the preaching of Paul and Silas that was the reason for their arrest, or them having witnessed to him during their arrest? If they did.

There must have been something that the Jailor knew about Paul and Silas that caused him to approach them about how to be saved, right?

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

How about the Jailor? Did he hear them, too?

And to just back up a little bit more, it may be the Jailor had heard what the damsel possessed with a spirit of divination had frequently said of Paul and Silas, that they were the servants of the most high God, and showed unto men the way of salvation, Acts 16:17? How about that?

At any rate, after the earthquake:

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Pray tell, what does the Bible teach is another component involved for the Jailor
to come to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? The next verse says;

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

So, the word of the Lord.

To clarify his need of a Savior?, because of him being accountable to God, for his sin?

Did the Jailor need to be preached the Gospel, for the Holy Spirit to give him the New Birth?

For him to "Believe" that they were commanding him do, would be evidence that the Lord had saved him, through the preaching of His Word.
..

 

[Alan Gross]

The order is clear in Acts 16:31.

The Bible teaches on John 6 that, in Acts 16, in order
for the Jailor to "Believe", SECOND, was the work of God, FIRST,
in another example here where sinners were asking about salvation:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him,

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will,
but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Do they "Believe" on their own accord?

Not according to the text:

44 No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

They are First "taught of God":

45a; It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.

Second, they heard and learned of the Father,
then they come to Jesus.

45b; Every man therefore that hath heard,
and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh,
which I will give for the life of the world.

That verse sad "the bread that I will give is my flesh,
which I will give for the life of the world." = the Gospel.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said,
This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it,
he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you,
that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

The word of God, first:

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go?
thou hast the words of eternal life.

Belief, second:

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ,
the Son of the living God.

 

[MrW]

My desire is to be controlled by the Spirit of God, God of eternity. My few years are not a drop in the ocean. I am NOT the counselor of the great I AM.

But I DO believe His Holy Bible, amen.

 

[MrW]

Alan: The jailer asked, “What must I do to be saved?”, thus indicating he knew what Paul and Silas were preaching. Of course they had to preach it to his household, because they had not heard it, but the jailer had.

They did not go through a lot of religious calisthenics with the jailer. They told him simply believe and then thou shalt be saved.

Interestingly, this logical order to believe first, and then you will be born again, is consistent with the rest of Scripture. It carries the same logical order throughout the Bible, even the Old Testament—believe, and thou shalt be saved.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. God commands that we first have faith in Him, THEN the believer is regenerated.

Without faith, it is impossible to please God, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Of all the times in the Bible that there are things written, one after the other, etc., they are not always in chronological or logical order and they weren't intended to be, or to teach an "order". This one has the order correct, though.

However, is there anything else that is also involved in this order that isn't stated in the text, but is still an essential part of everything that we read that is taking place?

How about the next verse? Vs 32? Have you seen that?

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

And to back up just a second, we see that:

Along with whatever else the jailor knew about God or Jesus Christ or his sin, from all the immediate circumstances surrounding him, such as the preaching of Paul and Silas that was the reason for their arrest, or them having witnessed to him during their arrest? If they did.

There must have been something that the Jailor knew about Paul and Silas that caused him to approach them about how to be saved, right?

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

How about the Jailor? Did he hear them, too?

And to just back up a little bit more, it may be the Jailor had heard what the damsel possessed with a spirit of divination had frequently said of Paul and Silas, that they were the servants of the most high God, and showed unto men the way of salvation, Acts 16:17? How about that?

At any rate, after the earthquake:

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Pray tell, what does the Bible teach is another component involved for the Jailor
to come to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? The next verse says;

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

So, the word of the Lord.

To clarify his need of a Savior?, because of him being accountable to God, for his sin?

Did the Jailor need to be preached the Gospel, for the Holy Spirit to give him the New Birth?

For him to "Believe" that they were commanding him do, would be evidence that the Lord had saved him, through the preaching of His Word.
..

As you have pointed out the jailer heard the gospel and believed the gospel and trusted in Christ Jesus. You seem to be going to great lengths to prove something that the bible is clear about.

 

[Silverhair]

The Bible teaches on John 6 that, in Acts 16, in order
for the Jailor to "Believe", SECOND, was the work of God, FIRST,
in another example here where sinners were asking about salvation:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him,

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will,
but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Do they "Believe" on their own accord?

Not according to the text:

44 No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

They are First "taught of God":

45a; It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.

Second, they heard and learned of the Father,
then they come to Jesus.

45b; Every man therefore that hath heard,
and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh,
which I will give for the life of the world.

That verse sad "the bread that I will give is my flesh,
which I will give for the life of the world." = the Gospel.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said,
This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it,
he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you,
that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

The word of God, first:

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go?
thou hast the words of eternal life.

Belief, second:

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ,
the Son of the living God.

Simple question for you @Alan Gross, were they saved so the could believe or were they saved because they did believe?