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Featured Churches double standards

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Reynolds, Jan 7, 2024.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What do you think?

    2 Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile. Ps 32

    8 Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not impute sin. Ro 4
     
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Ok. Apply same standard exactly to homosexuality.
     
  3. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    You gave an opinion. I would like to hear more opinions.
     
  4. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    God Himself is divorced. The book of Lamentations is God's divorce decree against Israel.

    The following is an excerpt from The Plot by Bob Enyart....
    The Bride and Groom
    Israel is the Bride. Christ is the Bridegroom. The Scriptures do not use the exact phrase, "the bride of
    Christ." But the Bible frequently uses this concept to describe God's relationship with His people Israel.

    God arranged a marriage and went through a courtship with Israel. Then God and Israel entered into a marriage contract (i.e., covenant). God's wife committed adultery so He began a formal period of separation during which she did not repent. Eventually, He divorced her. Ultimately, however, He promises to take her back. So, Israel now looks forward to a future remarriage. For God sees her again as His bride-to-be.

    The following wedding story occurs in the Bible in chronological order. (Some of the later passages refer back to previous events.)
    God's relationship with Israel began when He arranged to move her out of her father's house (Gen. 12:1-2). After the courtship had begun, God waited more than four hundred years while Israel grew up (Ezek. 16:7; Gen. 15:13). When she was ready (Ezek. 16:8; Song 2:7) the LORD allured her "into the wilderness" (Hos. 2:14-15) and "took [Israel] by the hand" (Jer. 31:32; Ex. 32:11). As God remembers it, He saw "the love of your betrothal, when you went after Me in the wilderness" (Jer. 2:2). Then God
    formally proposed (Ex. 19:4-5), and assembled the wedding party (Ex. 24:1). Israel then entered into her marriage covenant with God (Ex. 24:6-8; Ezek. 16:8 w/ Ruth 3:9), not by saying "I do" but we do (Ex. 24:3) " ' and you became Mine,' says the Lord GOD" (Ezek. 16:8). The bride and the Groom stood at the altar and faced each other (Deut. 5:4) as Moses officiated (Ex. 24:6-8).2 The wedding party then enjoyed a dinner while the LORD attended dressed in finery (Ex. 24:9-11). As families often name the firstborn son after the father, so God had requested special dedication of the firstborn sons (Ex. 22:29) of His marriage to Israel. The Husband warned His new wife against adultery (Deut. 5:5-7 [v. 6 w/ Gal. 4:2], 18) declaring Himself the "jealous" type (Deut. 6:14-15). The celebrations had barely commenced when Israel began to lust after others (Ex. 32:4). At the end of a rocky honeymoon, on their 40th anniversary, Moses read to Israel the marriage contract!the entire book of Deuteronomy!which retells the principle events and agreements of the preparations and ceremony including the wife's promise to love, honor and obey her Husband (Deut. 5:27; 11:13; 30:20). Then the LORD brought her to the land of His "own dwelling" (Ex. 15:17; 23:20; Deut. 4:37-38) and carried Israel over the threshold to her new home, over the Jordan river (Josh. 3:11-17) to the richly furnished houses that He had promised her (Deut. 6:10-11).

    The consummation of the marriage resulted not in joy but in tragedy:
    "Moreover you took your sons and your daughters, whom you bore to Me, and these you
    sacrificed…" Ezek. 16:20
    As His wife, Israel's unfaithfulness hurt God deeply:
    "Yet you were not like a harlot, because you scorned payment. You are an adulterous wife,
    who takes strangers instead of her husband." Ezek. 16:31-32
    God eventually divorced His wife, but still He longed for her:
    "They say, 'If a man divorces his wife, and she goes from him and becomes another man's, may
    he return to her again?' Would not that land be greatly polluted? But you have played the
    harlot with many lovers; yet return to Me," says the LORD. Jer. 3:1
    More than a century before this statement of divorce, Isaiah had presented an interesting question.
    Where was God's certificate of divorce for Israel? Through Moses, God instructed that to divorce an
    unfaithful wife, the husband must provide a certificate of divorce3 (Deut. 24:1, 3; [Jer. 3:8]; Mat. 5:31;
    19:7-8; Mark 10:4-5). As Isaiah recorded the question:
    Thus says the LORD: "Where is the certificate of your mother's divorce, whom I have
    put away? … and for your transgressions your mother has been put away." Isa. 50:1​
    Through Jeremiah, God acknowledges the existence of such a certificate:
    "…for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her
    away and given her a certificate of divorce…" Jer. 3:8​
    The certificate of divorce is Jeremiah's other book, Lamentations.​
    God intends to remarry His now estranged wife and as such would not stand qualified to pastor many, if not most, Baptists churches.

    HOWEVER! Your point against your pastor is still very well taken! Adultery is no less a capital crime than is Homosexuality. They should both not only be preached against, but re-criminalized. In fact, it is precisely the decriminalization of adultery that has lead inexorably to the decriminalization of homosexuality which will in turn lead to the decriminalization of sex with children.
    Indeed, the crime of adultery (and it is a crime whether our government treats it as one or not) is a chief cause of a great many of our societies ills, including, but not limited to, single mother households, poverty, teen depression and suicide, teen promiscuity (which leads to more single mother households), drug use, gang activity, violent crimes including murder, assault and robbery, sexually transmitted disease, etc, etc, etc. You pass and enforce one single law that prohibits adultery and the positive effects seem to have no end.
     
  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I agree with last paragraph. God marrying and divorcing Israel is symbolism and a spiritual union. God never had sexual intercourse with Israel.
    It is totally different than an actual sexual relationship.
     
  6. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    I agree that it isn't precisely the same thing but it certainly is not ENTIRELY different or else the terminology wouldn't work. There may yet be some future event that turns out to spiritual parallel the physical consummation of marriage.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Subsequently there are now more unions where the couple forgoes marriage and just lives together. My son and partner now have a home together and two young children and claim they are a happy monogamous couple. The Methodist Church of England is forgoing the term “Husband & Wife” … so what’s going on?
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Jesus, as Jehovah, kept an adulterous wife for centuries. That marriage covenant ended when she killed Him.

    Matthew 27:51
     
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Hosea did not merely "keep" an unfaithful wife, Hosea dared to LOVE Gomer ... unconditionally and selflessly [granted, the marriage was commanded by God and the story was to make a larger point about God and His people ... but Hosea still gave every indication of a man genuinely in love with his unfaithful wife.]

    In the end, the powerful lesson of that story is that there is a force STRONGER than "RIGHTEOUSNESS" ... LOVE trumps Righteousness. Love restored. Love binds and heals. Love triumphs.

    The "double standards" are as wrong as the spirit of "self-righteousness" that gives birth to them. We should actually start IN THE HOUSE with gossip and malice and the "one another" commands that go unheeded ... with our planks removed, we can turn to our neighbors' specks (without accidentally doing more harm than good).
     
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  10. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

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    My “opinion” is Bible-based.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    FYI, @Reynolds

    You didn't ask 'why the dismay', but I'm going to tell you anyway, :)

    Note that 'fornication' and 'adultery' are not the same. A 'cheating spouse' was not justification for divorce. Christ was reiterating Moses, Deuteronomy 22:13-19. The man had only one (1) opportunity to put away his wife and that was on or about the day after the wedding night IF, and only IF, there were no 'bloody bed sheets' to attest to her virginity.

    Thus the disciples response: "If the case of the man is so with his wife, it is not expedient to marry."
     
  12. CJP69

    CJP69 Active Member

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    This a product of our culture and usually cannot be dealt with head on with any productive result. If your son does not respect God's authority concerning his family relationship's by what measure is it that he claims to respect Him at all? That may not be a message he can even hear from his father. That is something I cannot gauge but whether it comes from you or someone else, this is where I would begin, if it were mine to deal with.
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I am ok with you being wrong.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Of course you are. And I am ok with you being wrong (like when you said that nobody until Augustine and Calvin questioned a Pauline authorship of Hebrews).

    But that does not change the fact that the greater danger, insofar as sins go, to a church are the sins that are accepted by the church.

    Why is pornography a greater danger than churches, insofar as sins go, than murder? Because murder is not a problem (normally) within a church. Same with homosexuality.


    I defend my position - that sins within a congregation is the greater danger - by the fact that we are called to be a holy people, to abstain from sin, and to expell the wicked. Sins within a congregation are more dangerous to a church than sins that do not exist in the church.

    Defend your position that homosexuality is a greater danger to a church than sins that are accepted by a congregation.

    Then we can weigh arguments.
     
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  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I have explained why things like homosexuality is a greater danger, in this thread even, but I will explain it one more time slower so you can understand.

    Homosexuality is being pushed by the world as acceptable.

    This has seeped into the church in many denominations.

    People in today's culture are being shamed for not accepting it.

    It is being foisted on children who go to public schools.

    It is being pushed by organizations like the American Pediatrics association where it used to be viewed as a problem.

    It is being pushed by other Psychiatric organizations as well.

    Things related to homosexuality such as transgenderism and non-binary are as well

    Children are being mutilated at an early age for these agenda's.

    No one is pushing adultery as acceptable, especially in the church.

    Therefore, the greater threat is homosexuality.

    Not sure why this needs explaining.
     
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It needs explaining because churches are not unanimously accepting homosexuality.

    If homosexuality is a sin that is affecting a church then it should be addressed.

    My post was that if it is not, if the church stands form against that sin, then it is not the greater sin that needs to be addressed.

    Pastors need to know their congregation. They need to know what sins are creeping in. Often it may be secular politics. It may be pornography (which is adultery if married). It may be greed. Or it may be homosexuality.

    You are wrong that adultery isn't being shoved down our throat. We see this in media. We see this on billboards, the internet. Pornography is normalized (and it constitutes adultery....per Jesus, anyway).

    I get that your church may be struggling with homosexuality. But mine is not. Your error is in taking a "one size fits all" solutions to pastor a congregation.
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    This is another one of your posts that tries to have it both ways when previous posts do not. I will leave you to your misery.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. My initial post was that a pastor should address sins facing the congregation - that these are the greater danger.

    You or your congregation may struggle with homosexuality. If that is the case then that would be a sin that needs to be addressed.

    In other words, I believe we should follow the example set by Scripture (by the epistles in the NT). Sermons should be relevant to each church and address each church to walk in holiness, to strengthen each individual church, to tackle problems in each congregation.

    @Reynolds is absolutely correct. I'm not saying we don't preach against any one sin, but I am saying our focus is on the congregation.


    Suppose you and I are in the same congregation. If you struggle with homosexuality then you need to hear sermons on that topic. But if my struggle is with greed then that is where my concentration needs to be. Hearing on homosexuality may convict you, but it is meaningless to my life as it doesn't apply.
     
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  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    It’s more complex than that. His partner is the one unsure of marriage, she comes from a broken home for starters. Allot more crap like that. My concerns are more directed on the two kids and what kind of example these two are setting.
     
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  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I used to be good friends with a very liberal pastor. He was liberal on doctrine, but very right wing on politics. He once said "I preach on sins that I will never commit.". I think that is true with many pastors. I have never heard an obese pastor preach on gluttony. I have never heard a pastor who drinks, preach on alcoholism. I think many pastors don't want to preach on sins in the church because they do not want to deal with the fallout of making church members mad.
     
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