Featured John Calvin vs Calvinism

Bravo!

Wow! Yes, sir, brother! Praise the Lord!

Yah. Right. Nothing to it matters.

Ha ha! God is Good, isn't He?

YAAAAH HOOOOO!!!

HALLELUJAH, PRAISE THE JESUS CHRIST GOD ALMIGHTY!

 

I've got four little problems for you.

1.) clear verses that say Jesus Died for the entire human race.

Problem: 1a.) Jesus didn't Die for the entire human race

1b.) and no verse says that at all and of course then none clearly

2.) The fact that Luke records Jesus telling all the 12 Disciples,
including Judas, that He was to shed His Blood for them all,

Problem: 2a.) Jesus didn't tell all the 12 Disciples,
that He was to shed His Blood for them all,

2b.) and Jesus did not shed His Blood for Judas.

3.) The fact that 2 Peter 2:1,
says that Jesus Died for those who will be damned,

Problem: 3a.) 2 Peter 2:1, does not say a word about Jesus

3b.) nor that Jesus Died for those who will be damned,

4.) in 3:9, where it says that God is not willing that, any
(including the mockers and scoffers) should perish in hell"

Problem: 2 Peter 3:9, doesn't have one word in it
saying that God is not willing that, any
(including the mockers and scoffers) should perish in hell"

Conclusion: I have a Bible for what I am saying,...
about "The fact" kind of things you're throwing out
where you have insurmountable Problems with all of those very grand
and miserably false "facts" in the railings you're making at atpollard,

...and you don't.

So, that's your biggest problem right there.

The fact.

 

Well I will have to work on my delivery then. I’m a plain man and I don’t like it when someone intentionally bully’s a brother for expressing their belief system … that really sets me into a defense mode… but that’s me. And I’m apparently not in tune with this ever reacquiring fight for just who is right and who is wrong theologically. There is at some point a time to agree to disagree / Greek text or no Greek text and Catholic traditions & the Pope be hanged. What is the marks of a true Christian, one who gets it… is it possibly love, patience, kind hearted, oh you know virtues described in the Bible.

 

Why brother does it take so many words to make a point. I am not adverse to reading your comments but the length is a bit much don’t you think?

 

If then Jesus died for the whole world then wouldn’t the whole world be redeemed? Why would there be the need for hell then?

 

I see we have six pages of denial of the obvious, Christ died for all of humanity, something even John Calvin believed.

Someone said the "logical conclusion" of John Calvin's beliefs is "limited atonement." If God picked individuals before creation for salvation, then it is logical that Christ would have died at least for all of them!

So John Calvin was right to see scripture as saying Christ died for everyone (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6. But he was wrong thinking Ephesians 1:4 indicated God has chosen us individually, rather than corporately, before creation. We all make mistakes, so we are hold onto what is good, and discard the rest.

 

Are you advocating UNIVERSAL SALVATION?

• (in which case, your meaning is 100% clear and I politely disagree).

If you are NOT advocating for UNIVERSAL SALVATION, then what exactly do YOU mean when you say that "Jesus Died for the entire human race"?

• As an advocate of Christus Victor, I agree that Jesus Died for the Human Race ... a "second Adam" to undo the power of death and the grave wrought by the "Federal Headship" of the "first Adam". As a consequence, both the elect and reprobates will be raised on the Last day ... one to Eternal Life and the other to Eternal Punishment. However, I have a strong suspicion that is not what you are referring to.

• As a huge fan of Revelation 5:9-10 as a vision of the promise of the Gospel - FULFILLED, I am all about Jesus as champion of the WHOLE WORLD ... Every Person without DISTINCTION: people for God purchased with HIS blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation, made them into a kingdom and priests to our God! However, I have a strong suspicion that is not what you are referring to.

If you are claiming that Jesus died for "every person without exception" and "every person without exception is NOT SAVED by the death of Jesus", then that begs the question ... SO WHAT? What difference does Jesus' death on their behalf make to the soul spending eternity in Hell? What point are you making and what belief are you advocating?

 

Better make that TWO.
I may not speak in tongues or any other flashy gifts of the Spirit ... but I can praise my Jesus with the best of them!

GO BAPTI-COSTALS!!!!

 

That was pretty pathetic. I would oblige you and accept the fight which you are spoiling for ... but I can't escape that guilty feeling like I would be picking on someone that was just a bit "simple".

1. Thank you for the offer, but I will pass on any "Theological Education" you have to offer. The inability to form proper sentences with correct capitalization and basic "subject - verb - object" construction seriously undermines your credibility. While I am a theological neophyte myself, what training I have received at Church has been "at the feet" of men with Masters in Theology from Moody Seminary in Chicago and a Pastor with a Doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary [so I am content to trust their teaching over your unproven theology].
2. I never claimed "The Bible's teaching of the universal Death of Jesus Christ" WAS "universal salvation", so it is pointless to "educate me" a claim I never made is not true. That just causes confusion and makes one question your basic reading comprehension.
3. I asked you a QUESTION: "If you are NOT advocating for UNIVERSAL SALVATION, then what exactly do YOU mean when you say that 'Jesus Died for the entire human race'?" ... which you have STILL not answered. Asking you to explain what you mean is not an unreasonable request. Why would any reasonable person make an ambiguous statement and then refuse to clarify what they meant by it.
4. You may want to brush up on what the BIBLE has to say about attacking and slandering entire groups of BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ. I find it just plain sad that you find degrading people whose "sin" is a passionate love for Jesus and anyone that walks through the door a source of humor to you and a reason to scorn and ridicule those Christians for whom Jesus Christ most CERTAINLY shed His Blood (on that we are in 100% agreement)!

I will give you a "DO OVER". Go back and actually READ post #110 and respond to what I actually wrote and we can have a conversation. Otherwise, if you come only to share your ridicule and derision, then "TALK TO THE HAND".

 

I would be happy to “play” with you (consider yourself invited).

Ok, but that was a bit circular. So what is the CONSEQUENCE of Jesus dying for someone (all I know is that is DOES NOT save them … no UNIVERSAL salvation, but universal died for). At the risk of seeming crass, “so what if Jesus took the curse of ME if I still end up in hell because I cannot ‘please God’?”

 

I do not come to Christianity from either growing up in a Church or studying at any Seminary. I was raised by atheists and graduated from street gangs and an Engineering University. So I take explanations and words seriously and apply hard logic to the suppositions. I am prepared to believe ANYTHING that can be PROVEN to be TRUTH.

I have some semantic issues with your CHRISTIAN SPEEK paragraph (and would prefer to clearly understand your First point before advancing to your second point).

You state “Christ died for our sins (all men)” … ok, I am prepared to accept that as an opening “premise”. What if Christ Died for the sins of all men without exception? I have asked several times for an explanation of what that means … experientially, practically, consequentially. The answers appear to still be in some “secret code” [and heck, I am a Christian, so how does that bode for some poor slob new to Christianity that might just be reading along?]

1. “He experienced the curse for mankind.” - So what does that mean for me? It would appear to indicate that Jesus joined us and now we can ALL be miserable, cursed failures. Terrific. Thanks. Let me try to obey the OT Law …
   
2. “This is a solidarity between mankind and God.” - OK, solidarity is GOOD. So by participating in the curse, Jesus became “one of the guys”. I can accept that. That still leaves both of us in a mess and doesn’t really help with this SIN problem.
   
3. “He freed man from the bondage of sin and death.” - What EXACTLY does that mean. This is where you appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.
   • “man” is freed from bondage to sin … but “everyone” is not saved. So what exactly are we freed from? Who is freed? What consequence, if any, is there for “all men without exception” now that they are free from bondage to sin?
   • Frankly, the premise and statement appear empirically false. I know far too many addicts who struggle to claim a shout of victory because NOBODY IS IN BONDAGE TO ANY SIN ANY MORE?
   • “And death” is patently false. PEOPLE DIE. QED, we are not free from death and Jesus has not ended death for everyone. So once again, what EXACTLY do you mean by your CHRISTIAN SPEEK words that do NOT mean what they say?
4. “That is one thing. It is appointed man once to die (sin brings forth death).” - This directly contradicts the previous sentence. What are you really trying to say? What does it mean to be “free from bondage to sin and death” and “be appointed once to die (the wages of sin)”? What did Jesus death obtain for EVERYMAN? Platitudes? Empty rhetoric? What, if anything, did the death of God Incarnate obtain for His People that those “not His people” may not have? Were the Pharisees more right than wrong (God gave us the LAW, and it is for US to live holy lives)?

I hope this is received in the “iron sharpening iron” spirit that it is intended. You asked to play, it is imperative that we communicate so that people can understand that we have REAL MEANING behind our words. God alone knows who else may be reading.

 

I’m reading your commentary and these are all good questions a practicing engineer would ask to insure the quality standards are implemented. Now it’s Jon’s turn (to play). This frankly is more of a deep dive of asking relevant questions to resolve vague issues than I thought possible from this forum and now I’m intrigued. Please proceed.