Christ died for all man

[Brightfame52]

I agree God is specific as to whom Christ died for:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, ... that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
1Ti 4:10 ... who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Rom 5:6 ...Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 ... while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

And you may ask why would He do such a thing for us siinners?
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So God's plan was clear then as it is now.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

So if you are a sinner then Christ died so that you might be saved by the grace of God.

Okay, thats who He specifically died for, His Sheep, to go beyond that is pure speculation and twisting scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

Okay, thats who He specifically died for, His Sheep, to go beyond that is pure speculation and twisting scripture.

Do you see the word "sheep" in those verses? NO you do not.

When we look at the text of scripture whom do we see Christ died for?
everyone
the whole world
for all
all men
sinners

That would cover the whole of humanity unless to think there is a special class that the bible does not talk about.

The one that has to be twisting scripture and using pure speculation is you BF. Do you really think the Holy Spirit / God does know what He wants?

God's desire is that all would come to salvation and that is why the Son came so that salvation was available to all.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Van]

Does scripture say Christ died as a ransom for all? Yes
Does scripture day Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world? Yes
Does scripture say Christ bought those heading for destruction? Yes

Since dying for all humanity includes dying for those to be saved, all these absurd arguments of Christ dying only for the church are twaddle.

 

[Brightfame52]

Do you see the word "sheep" in those verses? NO you do not.

When we look at the text of scripture whom do we see Christ died for?
everyone
the whole world
for all
all men
sinners

That would cover the whole of humanity unless to think there is a special class that the bible does not talk about.

The one that has to be twisting scripture and using pure speculation is you BF. Do you really think the Holy Spirit / God does know what He wants?

God's desire is that all would come to salvation and that is why the Son came so that salvation was available to all.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Christ was very particular in stating exactly He was laying down His for, the Sheep. To go beyond that is conjecture, and a false gospel

 

[Silverhair]

Christ was very particular in stating exactly He was laying down His for, the Sheep. To go beyond that is conjecture, and a false gospel

Then perhaps you should just come right out and tell the Holy Spirit He got it wrong. You do seem arrogant enough to do that as you keep alluding to that view.

The standard response from you is to deny scripture. Have you no fear of God?

 

[SavedByGrace]

The reformed commentary by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, have an excellent comment on 1 John 2:2, including what Martin Luther said

"ours—believers: not Jews, in contrast to Gentiles; for he is not writing to Jews (1Jo 5:21).

also for the sins of the whole world—Christ's "advocacy" is limited to believers (1Jo 2:1; 1Jo 1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin extends: see on 2Pe 2:1, "denying the Lord that bought them." "The whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion of the world (compare 1Jo 4:14; and "the whole world," 1Jo 5:19). "Thou, too, art part of the world, so that thine heart cannot deceive itself and think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me" [Luther]."

Without any doubt, the extent of the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, is the extent of the sin of humans!

Praise be to our WONDERFUL GOD!

 

[Alan Gross]

1 John 2:2

I John 2:2; "And he is the propitiation for our sins;
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world."

John1:10; "He was in the world,
and the world was made by Him,
and the world knew Him not."

"...none will say Christ died for the sun, moon, and stars,
for fishes, fowls, brutes, sticks, and stones..." Right?

It has been said that "the sense which the world bears
in St. John’s gospel and epistles must be esteemed., in reason,
the proper import of the word,
where it never signifies the elect only,
in opposition to the wicked of the world, etc."

Whitby, p. 127, 128. 184; ed. 2. 124, 125, 131.

"There would be some weight in this observation
if the word world was always used in one uniform
and constant sense in the writings of the apostle John,
whereas it admits to a variety of senses;

"and, therefore, the sense of the word "world" in one place
cannot be the rule for the interpretation of the word "world" in another,

"which can only be prefixed as the text or context determine:

"Sometimes it signifies the whole universe of created beings, (John 1:10);

"Sometimes the habitable earth (John 16:28);

"Sometimes the inhabitants of it, (John 1:10);

"Sometimes unconverted persons, both elect and reprobate, (John 15:19);

"Sometimes the worse part of the world, the wicked, (John 17:9);

"Sometimes the better part of it, the elect, (John 1:29; 6:33, 51);

"Sometimes a number of persons,
and that is a small one in comparison to the rest of mankind,
(John 12:19);

HERE: "in ONE VERSE the word "world" is used three times,
and in so many senses, (John 1:10);

John1:10; "He was in the world,
and the world was made by Him,
and the world knew Him not."

"He", that; is, Jesus Christ, "was in the world", = the habitable earth,
"and the world", = the whole universe, "was made by Him",
"and the world", = the inhabitants of the earth, "knew Him not";

and by the inhabitants of the earth, "knew Him not",
is not to be understood by all of the inhabitants of the earth
"for there were some, though few who did know Him:"

"and I will venture to affirm, that the word world
is always used in the apostle John’s writings,
in a restricted and limited sense,

"for some only, unless when it designs the whole universe,
or habitable earth, senses which are out of the question,

"for none will say Christ died for the sun, moon, and stars,
for fishes, fowls, brutes, sticks, and stones;

"and that it is never used to signify every individual of mankind
that has been, is, or shall be in the world;

"in which sense it ought to be proved it is used,
if any argument can be concluded from it in favor of general redemption."

etc., etc., etc.

adapted from:
The Cause of God and Truth
In Four Parts
by John Gill, D.D.

SECTION LVII.
pg. 206.

2Pe 2:1

2 Peter 2:1; "But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
denying the Lord that bought them,
and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

"This passage of scripture is often produced as a proof both of the saints’ final and total apostasy, and of universal redemption; or that, besides those that are saved, Christ died also for them that perish."

Remonstr. in Coll. Hag. art. 5. p. 17, and art. 2. p. 132, 160;
Act. Synod. circ. art. 2. p. 354, etc.;
Curcell. p. 360;
Limborch, p. 322.

1. "I do not think myself concerned to defend
any of these senses of the text mentioned,
judging neither of them to be the meaning of the words,
and so have nothing to do with the reasonings made use of
in the confutation of them;

"though, perhaps, the two latter are not so extravagant as represented.

"However, in order to give the genuine sense of this text,
let it be observed,

2. "That Christ is not here at all spoken of;
nor is there one syllable of his dying for any persons,
in any sense whatever.

"The word despo, thj, Lord, does not design Christ
but God the Father of Christ..."

(Note: Strongs 1203 despotés: lord, master
Original Word: δεσπότης, ου, ὁ).

3. "When these persons are said to be bought,
the meaning is, not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ,
for, as is before observed, Christ is not intended..."

4. "The word buying regards temporal deliverance,

"and particularly the redemption of the people of Israel out of Egypt;
"who are therefore called the people the Lord had purchased.

"The phrase is borrowed from Deuteronomy 32:6;

(Note: BIBLE.)

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise?
Is not He thy Father that hath bought thee?

Hath He not made thee and established thee?"

"Nor is this the only place the apostle Peter refers to in this chapter;
(see vv. 12, 13, compared with Deuteronomy 32:5).

"Now the persons the apostle writes to were Jews,
the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia,
Asia, and Bithyna, a people who, in all ages, valued,
themselves upon, and boasted mightily of their being bought,
purchased people of the Lord;

"wherefore Peter makes use of this phrase
much in the same manner as Moses had done before him,
to aggravate the ingratitude and impiety
of these false teachers among the Jews;

"that they should deny, if not in words, at least in works,
"that Mighty Jehovah,
"Who had of old redeemed their fathers out of Egypt,

"with a stretched out arm, and, in successive ages,
had distinguished them with peculiar favors;

"being ungodly men, turning the grace,
the doctrine of the grace of God, into lasciviousness..."

5. "Nothing can be concluded from this passage
in favor of Christ’s dying for them that perish;

"since neither Christ, nor the death of Christ,
nor redemption by His blood, are here once mentioned,
nor in the least intended.

"Nor can these words be thought to be a proof and instance
of the final and total apostasy of real saints,
since there is not anything said of these false teachers,
which gives any reason to believe
that they were true believers in Christ,
or ever had the grace of the Spirit wrought in their souls."

...
SECTION LIV.
pg. 198.
...

NICE, INTERESTING REFERENCE:
The Doctrine of the Atonement As Taught By the Apostles
by Rev. George Smeaton, D. D.

 

[Brightfame52]

Then perhaps you should just come right out and tell the Holy Spirit He got it wrong. You do seem arrogant enough to do that as you keep alluding to that view.

The standard response from you is to deny scripture. Have you no fear of God?

Lol, since when did you become the Holy Spirit ?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I John 2:2; "And he is the propitiation for our sins;
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world."

John1:10; "He was in the world,
and the world was made by Him,
and the world knew Him not."

"...none will say Christ died for the sun, moon, and stars,
for fishes, fowls, brutes, sticks, and stones..." Right?

It has been said that "the sense which the world bears
in St. John’s gospel and epistles must be esteemed., in reason,
the proper import of the word,
where it never signifies the elect only,
in opposition to the wicked of the world, etc."

Whitby, p. 127, 128. 184; ed. 2. 124, 125, 131.

"There would be some weight in this observation
if the word world was always used in one uniform
and constant sense in the writings of the apostle John,
whereas it admits to a variety of senses;

"and, therefore, the sense of the word "world" in one place
cannot be the rule for the interpretation of the word "world" in another,

"which can only be prefixed as the text or context determine:

"Sometimes it signifies the whole universe of created beings, (John 1:10);

"Sometimes the habitable earth (John 16:28);

"Sometimes the inhabitants of it, (John 1:10);

"Sometimes unconverted persons, both elect and reprobate, (John 15:19);

"Sometimes the worse part of the world, the wicked, (John 17:9);

"Sometimes the better part of it, the elect, (John 1:29; 6:33, 51);

"Sometimes a number of persons,
and that is a small one in comparison to the rest of mankind,
(John 12:19);

HERE: "in ONE VERSE the word "world" is used three times,
and in so many senses, (John 1:10);

John1:10; "He was in the world,
and the world was made by Him,
and the world knew Him not."

"He", that; is, Jesus Christ, "was in the world", = the habitable earth,
"and the world", = the whole universe, "was made by Him",
"and the world", = the inhabitants of the earth, "knew Him not";

and by the inhabitants of the earth, "knew Him not",
is not to be understood by all of the inhabitants of the earth
"for there were some, though few who did know Him:"

"and I will venture to affirm, that the word world
is always used in the apostle John’s writings,
in a restricted and limited sense,

"for some only, unless when it designs the whole universe,
or habitable earth, senses which are out of the question,

"for none will say Christ died for the sun, moon, and stars,
for fishes, fowls, brutes, sticks, and stones;

"and that it is never used to signify every individual of mankind
that has been, is, or shall be in the world;

"in which sense it ought to be proved it is used,
if any argument can be concluded from it in favor of general redemption."

etc., etc., etc.

adapted from:
The Cause of God and Truth
In Four Parts
by John Gill, D.D.

SECTION LVII.
pg. 206.




2 Peter 2:1; "But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
denying the Lord that bought them,
and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

"This passage of scripture is often produced as a proof both of the saints’ final and total apostasy, and of universal redemption; or that, besides those that are saved, Christ died also for them that perish."

Remonstr. in Coll. Hag. art. 5. p. 17, and art. 2. p. 132, 160;
Act. Synod. circ. art. 2. p. 354, etc.;
Curcell. p. 360;
Limborch, p. 322.

1. "I do not think myself concerned to defend
any of these senses of the text mentioned,
judging neither of them to be the meaning of the words,
and so have nothing to do with the reasonings made use of
in the confutation of them;

"though, perhaps, the two latter are not so extravagant as represented.

"However, in order to give the genuine sense of this text,
let it be observed,

2. "That Christ is not here at all spoken of;
nor is there one syllable of his dying for any persons,
in any sense whatever.

"The word despo, thj, Lord, does not design Christ
but God the Father of Christ..."

(Note: Strongs 1203 despotés: lord, master
Original Word: δεσπότης, ου, ὁ).

3. "When these persons are said to be bought,
the meaning is, not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ,
for, as is before observed, Christ is not intended..."

4. "The word buying regards temporal deliverance,

"and particularly the redemption of the people of Israel out of Egypt;
"who are therefore called the people the Lord had purchased.

"The phrase is borrowed from Deuteronomy 32:6;

(Note: BIBLE.)

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise?
Is not He thy Father that hath bought thee?

Hath He not made thee and established thee?"

"Nor is this the only place the apostle Peter refers to in this chapter;
(see vv. 12, 13, compared with Deuteronomy 32:5).

"Now the persons the apostle writes to were Jews,
the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia,
Asia, and Bithyna, a people who, in all ages, valued,
themselves upon, and boasted mightily of their being bought,
purchased people of the Lord;

"wherefore Peter makes use of this phrase
much in the same manner as Moses had done before him,
to aggravate the ingratitude and impiety
of these false teachers among the Jews;

"that they should deny, if not in words, at least in works,
"that Mighty Jehovah,
"Who had of old redeemed their fathers out of Egypt,

"with a stretched out arm, and, in successive ages,
had distinguished them with peculiar favors;

"being ungodly men, turning the grace,
the doctrine of the grace of God, into lasciviousness..."

5. "Nothing can be concluded from this passage
in favor of Christ’s dying for them that perish;

"since neither Christ, nor the death of Christ,
nor redemption by His blood, are here once mentioned,
nor in the least intended.

"Nor can these words be thought to be a proof and instance
of the final and total apostasy of real saints,
since there is not anything said of these false teachers,
which gives any reason to believe
that they were true believers in Christ,
or ever had the grace of the Spirit wrought in their souls."

...
SECTION LIV.
pg. 198.
...

NICE, INTERESTING REFERENCE:
The Doctrine of the Atonement As Taught By the Apostles
by Rev. George Smeaton, D. D.

No point in quoting from people like Smeaton, who are interested in their "theology"

THE WHOLE WORLD IN 1 John 2:2, is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

 

[Brightfame52]

No point in quoting from people like Smeaton, who are interested in their "theology"

THE WHOLE WORLD IN 1 John 2:2, is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

1 Jn 2:2 is the Sheep, and its the saved. To have Christ as ones propitiation is to be saved from your sins.

 

[JD731]

Jesus did not say, “ye are not sheep,” he said ye are not MY sheep. Only the sheep whom the Father gives to him are his sheep. Who are the sheep the Father gives to him?

the answer is here.
John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

Those who know the OT scriptures will recognize him and will believe in him and come to him. Those in John 10 who were not his did not recognize him and come to him and because of this had never believed in him. They resisted him.

It is that simple!

The NT did more than provide a savior, it revealed Jehovah as the Father God and Jesus Christ as his Son and the Holy Ghost as his Life. The members of the triune godhead is one God but are involved in our salvation with different functions.

Ro 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God (God the Father) that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God (God the Father), who also maketh intercession for us.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father and of Christ) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

One must be taught of God how each member of the godhead is involved in our salvation and he must then honor that knowledge.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

 

[MrW]

Who are Jesus’ sheep?

Answer: Believers.

Very simple, and Biblical.

 

[MrW]

And “world” does not always mean the “whole world”.

But “whole world” does mean “whole world”.

 

[JD731]

The NT did more than provide a savior, it revealed Jehovah as the Father God and Jesus Christ as his Son and the Holy Ghost as his Life. The members of the triune godhead is one God but are involved in our salvation with different functions.

Ro 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God (God the Father) that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God (God the Father), who also maketh intercession for us.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father and of Christ) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

One must be taught of God how each member of the godhead is involved in our salvation and he must then honor that knowledge.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

The elect from before the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ and him alone.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Jehovah God elected him. one person.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Therefore, in a sentence, all the Spirit of God puts into his body he is forming in this age, called the church, is the elect of God. They could not be anything but elect if they are in Christ who was elected before the creation of the world. Think!

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you (gentiles in context), brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We would not have all this foolishness the Reformed like brightfame 52 puts out if they would just believe the words and rightly divide the scriptures like God instructs us to do.

 

[Brightfame52]

Who are Jesus’ sheep?

Answer: Believers.

Very simple, and Biblical.

So He only died for believers, very simple indeed

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who are Jesus’ sheep?

Answer: Believers.

Very simple, and Biblical.

And how are believers made believers?

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, since when did you become the Holy Spirit ?

That's a rather lame response BF. You deny clear scripture, that's really sad.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The elect from before the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ and him alone.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Jehovah God elected him. one person.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Therefore, in a sentence, all the Spirit of God puts into his body he is forming in this age, called the church, is the elect of God. They could not be anything but elect if they are in Christ who was elected before the creation of the world. Think!

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you (gentiles in context), brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We would not have all this foolishness the Reformed like brightfame 52 puts out if they would just believe the words and rightly divide the scriptures like God instructs us to do.

So you are calling all “the Reformed “ including. bright flame 52 fools? Conversely I could call all general baptists foolish for not believing so… so you’re trying to start a fight!?! Just let me know cause I dearly love a fight! And you will have started it. Please proceed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's a rather lame response BF. You deny clear scripture, that's really sad.

Then how can you interpret the intentions of the Holy Ghost Silverhair? What gives you entrance into the mind and purpose of the Holy Ghost? Are you vying for the job? Personally I think he outranks ya.

 

[Brightfame52]

@JD731

The elect from before the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ and him alone.

False unsubstantiated statement