Christ died for all man

[JD731]

Christ only died for believers, those believing in Him, because He saved them from their sins, even unbelief. Anyone not believing, and who never believes, He didnt die for them, impossible.

That is demonstrably not true.

God set the theme of the NT in the first line of the first epistle he wrote to the world, Romans, and he included in his canon of scripture, "the gospel of God." He spent time convincing us that God alone is righteous and all the world are guilty of sin and there is no difference in sinners.He said there is none righteous and that all have gone their own way.Therefore God has provided his himself as the righteousness for guilty sinners. Who is guilty? Everyone! God has laid upon Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is proven by the law and men and God to be perfect, the iniquity of us all.

He wrote 4 full chapters to convince us of it and then he said who Jesus Christ died for. Here is what he said;

Ro 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The "we" are those who he had been speaking of for 4 chapters in Romans, the unrighteous, those condemned by their sins. He included Jews and gentiles in this grouping. These are those born of Adam through whom our absense of righteousness came through birth.

For you to say that you and a few other Calvinists are the only ungodly on the earth is mind boggling.How do you reconcile such nonsense?

 

[Brightfame52]

New thread: I John 2:1,2; Jesus' Advocacy and Penal Satisfaction are Both Effectual and Limited to the Elect.

People who appeal to 1 Jn 2:2 for universal atonement as in Christ died for every individual, unless they are universalist, they do so out of ignorance as to what Christ being our propitiation entails. It means that He is continually being our mercy seat before the satisfied justice of God. For He is our propitiation is in the present tense, a continual reality, God cannot and will not have wrath upon us for our sins, not as long as Christ is our propitiation. So 1 Jn 2:2 is a whole world delivered from the wrath of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

That is demonstrably not true.

God set the theme of the NT in the first line of the first epistle he wrote to the world, Romans, and he included in his canon of scripture, "the gospel of God." He spent time convincing us that God alone is righteous and all the world are guilty of sin and there is no difference in sinners.He said there is none righteous and that all have gone their own way.Therefore God has provided his himself as the righteousness for guilty sinners. Who is guilty? Everyone! God has laid upon Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is proven by the law and men and God to be perfect, the iniquity of us all.

He wrote 4 full chapters to convince us of it and then he said who Jesus Christ died for. Here is what he said;

Ro 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The "we" are those who he had been speaking of for 4 chapters in Romans, the unrighteous, those condemned by their sins. He included Jews and gentiles in this grouping. These are those born of Adam through whom our absense of righteousness came through birth.

For you to say that you and a few other Calvinists are the only ungodly on the earth is mind boggling.How do you reconcile such nonsense?

Yes it is true, all for whom Christ died are redeemed from all iniquity, even unbelief Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Its impossible for anyone Christ died for to die in their iniquity, including unbelief. Now if anyone dies in their iniquity, like these Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ didnt die for their iniquity !

 

[JD731]

People who appeal to 1 Jn 2:2 for universal atonement as in Christ died for every individual, unless they are universalist, they do so out of ignorance as to what Christ being our propitiation entails. It means that He is continually being our mercy seat before the satisfied justice of God. For He is our propitiation is in the present tense, a continual reality, God cannot and will not have wrath upon us for our sins, not as long as Christ is our propitiation. So 1 Jn 2:2 is a whole world delivered from the wrath of God.

Here is what John said:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of "THE" whole world.

He did not say "A" whole world. The word world here is kosmos, meaning all of humanity around the globe. If you are a flat earther, it means all over the sod.

 

[JD731]

Yes it is true, all for whom Christ died are redeemed from all iniquity, even unbelief Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Its impossible for anyone Christ died for to die in their iniquity, including unbelief. Now if anyone dies in their iniquity, like these Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Christ didnt die for their iniquity !

He was not talking to you in Matt 7:23, he was talking to his own kinsmen to whom he was bearing witness that he is the Messiah of the OT promises to them in whom they refused to believe. The ones he knew were those who were taught of the Father, meaning those who could compare the scriptures with the person and receive his testimony about himself. This is something you cannot do.

If anyone was ungodly it was them. Here is what he said to them after all his testimony to them and in the last week of his ministry to them on earth before they crucified him.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house (family) is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Brightfame52]

Here is what John said:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of "THE" whole world.

He did not say "A" whole world. The word world here is kosmos, meaning all of humanity around the globe. If you are a flat earther, it means all over the sod.

Thats the saved whole world, Christ is their propitiation continuously, no sin charged to them for ever.

 

[Brightfame52]

He was not talking to you in Matt 7:23, he was talking to his own kinsmen to whom he was bearing witness that he is the Messiah of the OT promises to them in whom they refused to believe. The ones he knew were those who were taught of the Father, meaning those who could compare the scriptures with the person and receive his testimony about himself. This is something you cannot do.

If anyone was ungodly it was them. Here is what he said to them after all his testimony to them and in the last week of his ministry to them on earth before they crucified him.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house (family) is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

People who Christ died for are redeemed from all iniquity, from unbelief. Whoever doesnt believe in Jesus Christ, not the false christ of arminianism, but the Christ who died and saved a particular people, He dint die for them, just like the ones in Matt 7:23 who are charged with their iniquity.

 

[Silverhair]

He was not talking to you in Matt 7:23, he was talking to his own kinsmen to whom he was bearing witness that he is the Messiah of the OT promises to them in whom they refused to believe. The ones he knew were those who were taught of the Father, meaning those who could compare the scriptures with the person and receive his testimony about himself. This is something you cannot do.

If anyone was ungodly it was them. Here is what he said to them after all his testimony to them and in the last week of his ministry to them on earth before they crucified him.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house (family) is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

@JD731 you have to realize that BF has a different way of understanding the text of the bible. If one went by his logic Christ didn't save any people He only saved His sheep.
Joh_10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

 

[JD731]

@JD731 you have to realize that BF has a different way of understanding the text of the bible. If one went by his logic Christ didn't save any people He only saved His sheep.
Joh_10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Yes, I do not know who is saved or lost. That info is above my pay grade. However, I know one thing about BF and that is, whether he is saved or lost, there is one thing that is not in doubt and that is that he is not a sheep as it is defined by a contextual application of the scriptures. That I know for sure.

 

[JD731]

People who Christ died for are redeemed from all iniquity, from unbelief. Whoever doesnt believe in Jesus Christ, not the false christ of arminianism, but the Christ who died and saved a particular people, He dint die for them, just like the ones in Matt 7:23 who are charged with their iniquity.

That is unintelligible logic and reasoning. Salvation is an expensive item that no one purchased because no one had the ability to do so. However it was purchased by someone who was willing and able to pay the price and then offer it as a gift, no charge, for anyone who will receive it. The purchaser was God the Father who gave his own Son as the purchase price and once he was sacrificed to put away sins, offered his Life to any who will receive it.

Mt 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

This is a picture of this age when the merchant man finds many goodly pearls (it is important to take into account from whence a pearl comes) in V 45.
It is just one pearl in V 46 because all the pearls together becomes one pearl.

The church of Jesus Christ is many members but one body. They are also "sons" of God in the body and the corporate body of Christ, who himself is "THE" son of God. How could those "in him" be any less. The individual members that make up the body are heirs and joint heirs with Christ. How could it be any different seeiong as how we are one with him through the new birth.

Read this parable again and meditate on it. Doing so will turn on a light for some.

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes, I do not know who is saved or lost. That info is above my pay grade. However, I know one thing about BF and that is, whether he is saved or lost, there is one thing that is not in doubt and that is that he is not a sheep as it is defined by a contextual application of the scriptures. That I know for sure.

If Jesus Christ died for ALL men, why are not ALL men going to Heaven?... He said to many your're of your Father the devil... He didn't say now if you believe, believing in me will put you there... Why is there no mention of the second thief on the cross?... What is his fate?... Or is that speculation?... We do know one thing, ALL that the Father gave to the Son to save WILL be saved... If not than Jesus Christ is a failure and he wouldn't be raised from the dead... And like The Apostle Paul said if Christ is not raised, your faith is vain and you are still in your sins... And if we go by what we've done (merit) instead of grace (what he's done alone), we rob the Godhead of its Glory... There will be a numberless multitude in Heaven, not the selected few... Children of God, by the Sovereign Will of God... Read Revelation 7:9-10, put there by God's Love, Mercy and Grace, and the death of pride... Brother Glen

 

[Brightfame52]

That is unintelligible logic and reasoning. Salvation is an expensive item that no one purchased because no one had the ability to do so. However it was purchased by someone who was willing and able to pay the price and then offer it as a gift, no charge, for anyone who will receive it. The purchaser was God the Father who gave his own Son as the purchase price and once he was sacrificed to put away sins, offered his Life to any who will receive it.

Mt 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

This is a picture of this age when the merchant man finds many goodly pearls (it is important to take into account from whence a pearl comes) in V 45.
It is just one pearl in V 46 because all the pearls together becomes one pearl.

The church of Jesus Christ is many members but one body. They are also "sons" of God in the body and the corporate body of Christ, who himself is "THE" son of God. How could those "in him" be any less. The individual members that make up the body are heirs and joint heirs with Christ. How could it be any different seeiong as how we are one with him through the new birth.

Read this parable again and meditate on it. Doing so will turn on a light for some.

Its Truth. The people Christ died for are redeemed from all iniquity, yeah even unbelief Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

He redeems them from sin and unbelief and purifies them unto a life of Faith being zealous of good works.

 

[37818]

Its Truth. The people Christ died for are redeemed from all iniquity, yeah even unbelief Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

He redeems them from sin and unbelief and purifies them unto a life of Faith being zealous of good works.

2 Peter 2:1, But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord* that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord* God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[37818]

2 Peter 2:1, But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord* that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord* God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts of the Apostles 4:24, And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord*, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: . . .

 

[tyndale1946]

Its Truth. The people Christ died for are redeemed from all iniquity, yeah even unbelief Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

He redeems them from sin and unbelief and purifies them unto a life of Faith being zealous of good works.

Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Brother Glen

 

[JD731]

If Jesus Christ died for ALL men, why are not ALL men going to Heaven?...

Jesus Christ did not say all men are going to heaven. All men that he saves from sin are not going to heaven. Every person that are left on the earth when he establishes his rule on the earth will be saved and enter into his kingdom (except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, he said) All rebels will be purged by the fires of the day of the LORD judgements, called the great tribulation. The church of Jesus Christ along with the resurrected saints of other ages will occupy the heavenly city. Here is an except from a prophetic view of these things;

Ps 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. 15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

He said to many your're of your Father the devil...

He did not say that to you. He said that to the devil possessed rulers of Israel, who had made a conscious and clear decision to oppose Jesus Christ after he had taken 3 1/2 years to cast all the devils out of Israel. They came back after it was cleansed and brought more devils with them and the last state was worse than the first. In other words, they pitched in with Satan and he led them. See ex 6 and see that God sees Israel collectively as one man, his firstborn son.

He didn't say now if you believe, believing in me will put you there...

This is a failure to think. What do you think Jesus had been doing for 3 1/2 years in Israel. His fame went everywhere and everone knew about him. Besides, the word of God was posted on the cross of Jesus. This is Jesus of Nazereth; The King of the Jews.

Why is there no mention of the second thief on the cross?... What is his fate?... Or is that speculation?...

Are you admitting here that you have never read the account of the crucifixion when both these men railed against Jesus. The one who repented and believed was justified and the other died as a sinner. Why? because God willed it? No. Because the thief willed it.

God is quoted saying, It is not my will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But you don't believe that. You could believe it but you will not believe it.There are many statements in the scripture that you do not believe as written. It is your choice every time whether you believe them. You Calvinists say you do not have a will and yet you exercise unbelief over and over on these forums, proving you do not believe what you teach.

We do know one thing, ALL that the Father gave to the Son to save WILL be saved... If not than Jesus Christ is a failure and he wouldn't be raised from the dead...

That is the worst reasoning imaginable. That is your gospel, it is not the true gospel. God was reconciled to the whole world and Jesus Christ died for the whole world. God said he would receive any sinner who will come to him in the name of Jesus Christ he will save. To teach that God sent his Son to die for sinners to prove that he has not been reconciled to all sinners by not saving them is a doctrine that God did not think of and present to us.

And like The Apostle Paul said if Christ is not raised, your faith is vain and you are still in your sins...

Those people who has vain faith are those who marginalize the gospel of Christ. In this case they believe in the death and the burial of Christ, saying they believe in Christ, but they do not believe in the resurrection. This will not get them saved. One must believe the gospel as God gives it.

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

And if we go by what we've done (merit) instead of grace (what he's done alone), we rob the Godhead of its Glory..

.

I have read yours and others stuff on these forums for a long time and one thing I am absolutely sure of and that is the fact that you can not give a biblical definition of gace and how God applies it and what is his purpose in it if you are given 6 months to do it.You Reformed believers pervert the doctrine of grace and give it a non biblical meaning. We are heading for a period of time that is predetermined by God when there will be no grace on this earth while he destroys sinners out of it. Jesus said it will be a time like has never been before on this earth (and he included the judgement of the flood) and never shall be again.

There will be a numberless multitude in Heaven, not the selected few... Children of God, by the Sovereign Will of God... Read Revelation 7:9-10, put there by God's Love, Mercy and Grace, the death of pride...

God has not presented his will as sovereign in the matter of salvation of a man. You guys have made this up.

The word sovereign is not in the KJV Bible and it is in very few modern translations. God deals with men providentially. He raised up Pharoah of Egypt during the days of Moses not to sovereignly make Pharoah withstand Moses and the children of Israel, but because in his omniscience and his omnipresence, knew that he would. This was his will in teaching his people and the world about himself but the decision to do what he did was certainly Pharoah's own decision.He will have to give account of himself and his actions someday.

I think you have bought into some errant and wrong doctrines and I hope you will consider my arguments here. Our Lord is glorified by our simple belief in the truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Brother Glen

So whats your point ? The ones Christ died for redeems them from all iniquity and gives them a purified them unto Himself Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If His death didnt redeem them He died for unto Himself, It was defeated by sin

 

[JonC]

Thread closed due to length