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Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 1, 2024.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?


    Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

    The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

    “'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

    This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

    “John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

    By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

    Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

    There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

    It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

    “For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

    The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

    “Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

    They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

    As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

    In Revelation 3:14, Jesus describes Himself as “ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ”, which is, “the Beginning of the Creation of God”. “ἀρχὴ”, here does not mean, “the first to be Created”, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the words to mean, as they corrupt the English here, to read, “the beginning of the creation by God”. Notice how they misrepresent what the Greek says, by inserting “BY” God, to make Jesus Christ the first-created. John did not write, “τοῦ ὑπό θεοῦ”, which would require the Greek preposition “ὑπό”, to be used. Interesting that in this same chapter of Revelation, in verses 1 and 12, as elsewhere, John writes, “τοῦ θεοῦ”, as he does in verse 14. And yet in these places, the JW's translate into English, “of God”, which is what the genitive case means!If “ἀρχὴ” here means “first to be created”, then there would have been no need to insert in English, the preposition “BY”. The Greek lexicon by the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of the word, “ἀρχὴ”, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which means that Jesus Christ here says that He IS The Creator.
     
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Cont...


    We have the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator of the entire universe. In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

    “And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

    These words are from Psalm 102:24-27, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

    “I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

    It is impossible for the words in Psalm to be used for Jesus Christ, if, as some assume, that He is not equal to the Father, and Himself Almighty God, Yahweh.

    The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed).

    It is clear from Scripture, that the Father did not Create by Himself, nor did Jesus Christ, as we have seen that both are Testified in the Bible as Creator. The only possible way to understand this, when we see the use of , “διά”, rather than “intermediate agent”, we can use this preposition with the meaning of, “with one another”.

    In fact, there is a clear example of “διά” used in this sense in the New Testament, where we read in Galatians 1:1;

    “Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead”.

    Here we have, “δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος”, where the meaning is, “by both Jesus Christ and God the Father”. Paul did not write, “δια ιησου χριστου και εξ θεου πατρος”, that is, “through Jesus Christ and from God the Father”. The one preposition, διά, here governs BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father. Note also, how Paul mentions Jesus Christ before he does the Father. Something he would not have done, if Jesus Christ were “inferior” to the Father. In verse 3, Paul prays for “grace and peace”, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ”, where again we have the one Greek preposition, “ἀπὸ” (from), for “God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, jointly used as equals, as the “origin and cause”, of our “grace and peace”.

    When we read in John 1:3, “πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο”, it is better translated, “all things with Him came into being”, as we have “τὸν θεόν” (God) in verse 1, as the Father. And, in verse 2 John is emphatic, when he says, “οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, “Who (the Word) was in the beginning with God”. This takes us into verse 3, as is distinct from the “ἀρχῇ”, which is not Genesis 1:1, but eternity past, as Jesus says in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify Me in your Own presence with the glory that I had (εἶχον, the imperfect, denoting origin and continuance) with (παρὰ, literally, “along with”, denoting equality) You before the world existed (πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι)”. Literally, “before there even was a world”, as in timeless eternity.

    The same is with Hebrews 1:1, 2, “ὁ θεὸς…ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ…δι᾽ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας”, where it should read, “God…in His Son…with Whom also He made the worlds”

    There can be no doubt, that the Bible clearly Teaches that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, exactly as God the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. This can only mean that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, Almighty God; and that the God of the Bible cannot be “Unitarian”, as some heretically teach, but IS Trinitarian.
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Simple answer to the question:
    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    The Triune God created all things so even when one says through or by Christ it is still the Triune God that did the creation.
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you have not understood what I have written on the OP

    If, as some argue, the Father, as the source, Created the Universe, THROUGH the intermediate agency of Jesus Christ, then the Father is the "greater" Person in the Eternal Godhead.

    The early Church in their "creeds", which were mainly taken from those done by heretics, used language like, "light from Light". In the Greek this is, "Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός", literally, "light out of Light", by which they understood, the Father as "The Light", as in the Sun, the SOURCE, and Jesus Christ, as "the light", as in STREAMING from the SOURCE, being the mere RAYS from the sun! This heresy is known as Subordinationism, in the Eternal Godhead, where the Father alone is Primary, and the Son and Holy Spirit, not equal. This is BLASPHEMY!

    The Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 100% coequal, coeternal and coessential, in the Eternal Godhead, and the Three Created EQUALLY, the entire Universe, as in Genesis 1:1
     
  5. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, those that would deny the trinity are in great error so yes I did understand what you said in your OP.

    upload_2024-2-2_8-50-49.jpeg
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Son is mankinds and creations sole access to the LORD{YHWH} God.

    John 1:18, . . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . .

    Genesis 12:7, . . . And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . .

    John 8:56, . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ."

    John 12:40-41, . . . He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. . . .

    Isaiah 6:5, . . . Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. . . ."

    Isaiah 6:9-10, . . . And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. . . .

    John 14:6, . . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . .

    John 14:9-10, . . . Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. . . .

    John 5:18-19, . . . but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . .
     
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