Conversion?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is not that people stay out of church because of Christ... The sad fact is people stay out of church because of Christians... I observed this when I was a young man, I saw 22 churches split right down the middle... Those on one side could not fellowship with those on the other side... The children of both sides left in droves and because of that the new generation that was suppose to carry on church doctrine and tradition died... And many churches couldn't survive and closed their door forever... When I joined, at the age of 22, I had already lost many friends but had faith that those young people would return, they never did... It took 30 years to heal the breech and by then it was too late... A whole generation was destroyed, so those in church remember, your children are watching... When I was 57, after being in the church for 35 years, our church closed it doors... I was the youngest one in the church... Conversion?... Convert yourself to walk like Christ!... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

That is truly sad…especially with peoples need for Christ today.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well yes He did die for His church, but He was raised again so that those who freely trust in the risen Christ could be saved and thus become one of the elect.

But you limit whom He died for. He did not go to the cross for only those that would believe but for all so that all were able to be saved through Him.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Ti 2:5 ... the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, ...

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

And if you are curious as to why Christ would do this for us sinners:

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You have such a limited view of the love of God for His creation. It seems you have a limited view of God Himself.

Thats the world He Loved and died for, His Body the Church, and His death for Her brings about conversion .

 

[Silverhair]

Thats the world He Loved and died for, His Body the Church, and His death for Her brings about conversion .

The whole world of ungodly sinners just as the bible says. The sovereign God of the bible does not love the way your god does. You have an ineffectual one that only has limited abilities.

You keep holding up this limited god of yours and then wonder why people do not agree with you.

I have shown from scripture who the real God of the bible loves and why the real God of the bible will save those that trust in Him. He is sovereign over His creation and can do as He pleases while your god can only do what you say he can. You have a puny ineffectual god.

 

[Brightfame52]

The whole world of ungodly sinners just as the bible says. The sovereign God of the bible does not love the way your god does. You have an ineffectual one that only has limited abilities.

You keep holding up this limited god of yours and then wonder why people do not agree with you.

I have shown from scripture who the real God of the bible loves and why the real God of the bible will save those that trust in Him. He is sovereign over His creation and can do as He pleases while your god can only do what you say he can. You have a puny ineffectual god.

Again He Loved and Died specifically for His Church and His death converts them to Himself.

 

[Silverhair]

Again He Loved and Died specifically for His Church and His death converts them to Himself.

Then you have an ineffectual non-biblical god.

 

[Brightfame52]

Then you have an ineffectual non-biblical god.

Why because He Loved His Church and saved it from her sins, converted her to God.

 

[Silverhair]

No because your i

Why because He Loved His Church and saved it from her sins, converted her to God.

No, it is because your ineffectual god is not the sovereign God of the bible. Your god is limited to your imagination of what he can do.

 

[Brightfame52]

No because your i


No, it is because your ineffectual god is not the sovereign God of the bible. Your god is limited to your imagination of what he can do.

The Christ I serve, His Death for the Church was effectual enough to save and convert , every member of it. Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[Silverhair]

The Christ I serve, His Death for the Church was effectual enough to save and convert , every member of it. Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

But BF the church that God loves is part of the whole world that He loves and yet you continue to deny this truth.

You quote these verses as if real Christians do not believe them. But you error in one major point. Christ's death saved no one, it made salvation possible for everyone but saved no one. One is saved when they trust in the risen Christ, well that 's what my bible say anyway. 1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

You are supposed to believe the gospel BF.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

This is the truth you need to accept: 1Co 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

The gospel message is for everyone not just a select few as you posit: Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

That is why Christ came: Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

The sovereign God of the bible desires all to come to Him and be saved. Your little g god does not desire that, he is ineffectual and unable to save anyone. He is not sovereign.

You seem to have a lot of different scripture in your version of the bible or perhaps it just that you can not accept what the bible says? You have let people tell you what the bible says rather than trusting the Holy Spirit's inspired word.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

But BF the church that God loves is part of the whole world that He loves and yet you continue to deny this truth.

False, the Church that God Loves is the whole world that He Loves. The whole world of His Own Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

And His Love for them brings about their conversion !

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



False, the Church that God Loves is the whole world that He Loves. The whole world of His Own Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

And His Love for them brings about their conversion !

Your hyper calvinism has warped your understanding of the biblical text. I have to say that your view is dangerous and destructive to the understanding of the truth of Gods Holy Word.

Following your logic Christ only loved the 12 that were with Him at the passover meal. You have a very strange theology there BF.

You deny clear scripture and latch onto any verse that holds a word that you need even when the context shows your error. You are as lost as a ball in tall grass.

BF you need to throw that errant theology out the window and start trusting the Holy Word of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your hyper calvinism has warped your understanding of the biblical text. I have to say that your view is dangerous and destructive to the understanding of the truth of Gods Holy Word.

Following your logic Christ only loved the 12 that were with Him at the passover meal. You have a very strange theology there BF.

You deny clear scripture and latch onto any verse that holds a word that you need even when the context shows your error. You are as lost as a ball in tall grass.

BF you need to throw that errant theology out the window and start trusting the Holy Word of God.

So there you go again accusing the brethren of being Hyper Calvinists (a pejorative expression meant to demean someone’s understanding of scripture). If Christ died for every person who has ever lived, all would be saved and this we know is not true for He said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:37-39). It has been well said that one of three things must be true: 1. Christ died for all the sins of all men, 2. Christ died for some of the sins of all men, or 3. Christ died for all of the sins of some men. If Christ died for all the sins of all men, everyone would be saved; this Bible does not teach. If Christ died for some of the sins of all men, no man is saved for one sin that has not been remitted would be enough to keep any person out of heaven. Therefore, Christ did die for all the sins of some men - the elect; this the Bible teaches.

I don’t mind a discussion of peoples interpretation of Scripture, not even if there is conflict but what I do mind is demeaning someone for their process of interpretation… that’s in reality just name calling and people see that and judge that to be not loving & not something they choose to be a part of… with the end result occurring to keep your Christian beliefs, I choose not to be a part of it.Full disclosure, that’s my sons own decision he made a long time ago, I can’t say I blame him. But that leads to a lifestyle that doesn’t have any part of Christ in it. Any wonder why Christianity is failing today!

 

[37818]

If Christ died for every person who has ever lived, all would be saved . . .

That belief is the basic concept of universalism and a false accusation made by some who deny that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole of mankind.

 

[Silverhair]

So there you go again accusing the brethren of being Hyper Calvinists (a pejorative expression meant to demean someone’s understanding of scripture). If Christ died for every person who has ever lived, all would be saved and this we know is not true for He said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:37-39). It has been well said that one of three things must be true: 1. Christ died for all the sins of all men, 2. Christ died for some of the sins of all men, or 3. Christ died for all of the sins of some men. If Christ died for all the sins of all men, everyone would be saved; this Bible does not teach. If Christ died for some of the sins of all men, no man is saved for one sin that has not been remitted would be enough to keep any person out of heaven. Therefore, Christ did die for all the sins of some men - the elect; this the Bible teaches.

I don’t mind a discussion of peoples interpretation of Scripture, not even if there is conflict but what I do mind is demeaning someone for their process of interpretation… that’s in reality just name calling and people see that and judge that to be not loving & not something they choose to be a part of… with the end result occurring to keep your Christian beliefs, I choose not to be a part of it.Full disclosure, that’s my sons own decision he made a long time ago, I can’t say I blame him. But that leads to a lifestyle that doesn’t have any part of Christ in it. Any wonder why Christianity is failing today!

@Earth Wind and Fire you choose to follow what some man {Owen} has told you. I, on the other hand trust what the Holy Spirit has inspired in the Word of God.

1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice {propitiation} for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

1Ti 2:3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The bible tells me that God sent His Son to be the propitiation/atonement for all humanity because He loves all of His creation and desires all to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

Now you may deny this truth but that does not change the truth. While you may like Owen and he may have written some good things, in this case he is wrong.

As for saying someone is a hyper calvinist, If someone wants to hold to that view where is the problem in saying that they are one?

I believe the bible so saying that I am a bible believing Christian would just be a true statement not a pejorative.

 

[Brightfame52]

Conversion is a blessing of the New Covenant found in the shed blood of Christ. His Blood is the Blood of the New Covenant shed for the Many Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It brings conversion to many Ezk 36:26-27


26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Silverhair]

Did you notice that it says for many not for a select few.It does say His shed blood is for the remission of sins and we know that the remission was for the sins of humanity.

Context BF context. Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake..."

 

[Silverhair]

BF These comments may help you understand Eze 36:26-27

MORAL RESTORATION (Ezekiel 36)
It is always understood that the national restoration of Israel implies their moral restoration. They will repent and turn to the Lord before the promised blessings shall be poured out upon them. It is this moral restoration which is foretold here.
We have first restoration of the land (Eze_36:1-15), and then the people (Eze_36:16; Eze_37:28). Eze_36:19-22, like those that follow, are spoken anticipatively. Observe God’s motive for restoring them (Eze_36:22-23). Observe the symbolic allusion to their moral regeneration (Eze_36:25-27), and that afterwards comes the material blessing. Many will have been gathered back to their land before the moral cleansing takes place, but the blessing will be withheld till then (Eze_36:28-38). James Gray - Concise Bible Commentary

 

[Brightfame52]

Did you notice that it says for many not for a select few.It does say His shed blood is for the remission of sins and we know that the remission was for the sins of humanity.

Context BF context. Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake..."

The House of Israel is another name for the elect,

 

[Scarlett O.]

So there you go again accusing the brethren of being Hyper Calvinists (a pejorative expression meant to demean someone’s understanding of scripture).

Google "hyper-Calvinism". It's a real and true sect of the reformed. It's not a pejorative.

 

[Silverhair]

The House of Israel is another name for the elect,

Well that explains a lot. You view is, well I am not sure what to call it. You view is so twisted it is not even close to scripture. The only time that we see Israel and elect in the same verse is here:

Isa_45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
Rom_11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel in both cases refers to the nation of Israel. In Isa 45:4 Israel is God's chosen nation through which He will bring salvation to the world.

In Rom 11:7 we see that God's chosen nation Israel has rejected the means of salvation, faith, and has held to the law as their means of salvation rather than trust in their Messiah, Christ Jesus,

Your "House of Israel is another name for the elect" is spurious and just shows how you will twist any scripture to have it fit your theological understanding.

I do not know where you are getting your misguided information from but it just leading you down the garden path to ruin. Your continued cherry picking verses taken out of context is a sure path to disaster.