Calvinist template.

[MrW]

If God looks at something we do (faith in the gospel) and responds with election”, then that is the very definition of a works based salvation.

If God “elects” for salvation based in His will and desire, directs God Holy Spirit to work upon that person and then that person responds with faith in the gospel, you have Grace.

That is “unconditional, unmerited election”

peace to you.

No, that’s not works. It’s just God honoring the condition He Himself put on salvation. It is not unconditional. Acts 16:31.

“Works” implies earning something. Obeying God’s command to repent and believe isn’t earning something. Christ earned it all in our stead.

 

[MrW]

False. John 10:28, that "never perish" means not in any way. . . . ου μη . . . .

What is false?

 

[canadyjd]

Will, there is no works based salvation in my view. And salvation precedes the election. Both per Scripture.

And so we disagree.

The passages you quoted say nothing of election.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

No, that’s not works. It’s just God honoring the condition He Himself put on salvation. It is not unconditional. Acts 16:31.

“Works” implies earning something. Obeying God’s command to repent and believe isn’t earning something. Christ earned it all in our stead.

One view has God responding to what someone does and then making them “elect”.

My view has folks responding to what God does. That demonstrates God’s grace.

It’s ok if we disagree.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

One view has God responding to what someone does and then making them “elect”.

My view has folks responding to what God does. That demonstrates God’s grace.

It’s ok if we disagree.

peace to you

I see a lot from you that we get faith after we are saved but I do not see any verses that support you view. What scripture are you basing your view on?

 

[canadyjd]

I see a lot from you that we get faith after we are saved but I do not see any verses that support you view. What scripture are you basing your view on?

You have seen nothing from me stating anyone gets faith after they are saved.

Please stop speaking falsehoods.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

You have seen nothing from me stating anyone gets faith after they are saved.

Please stop speaking falsehoods.

peace to you

You make a number of philosophical comments but that is just you opinion. So please stop being evasive.

 

[37818]

What is false?

. . . We do not stay saved because we are so great at perseverance

I made no such claim for the perseverance of the saints.

You ignore my argument. God does the saving. And God does the keeping. God doing the keeping is how the saints persever.

 

[37818]

And so we disagree.

The passages you quoted say nothing of election.

peace to you

Yes we disagree.
The Scripture nowhere teaches election before salvation.

 

[MrW]

I made no such claim for the perseverance of the saints.

You ignore my argument. God does the saving. And God does the keeping. God doing the keeping is how the saints persever.

That’s why it is properly called the preservation of the saints.

If I cannot save myself, it follows that I cannot keep myself.

 

[Craigbythesea]

If I cannot save myself, it follows that I cannot keep myself.

1 Cor: 9:24. Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it.
25. Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one.
26. So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air;
27. but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified. (NRSV)

 

[Silverhair]

That’s why it is properly called the preservation of the saints.

If I cannot save myself, it follows that I cannot keep myself.

Actually when you look at the KJV+, NKJV+, ABP+, NASB+ or the TRi+ you find that G5281
is translated as perseverance, endurance, patient enduring, patience, steadfastness but never preservation.
These are all qualities that the saved individual is to exhibit in their Christian lives.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Actually when you look at the KJV+, NKJV+, ABP+, NASB+ or the TRi+ you find that G5281
is translated as perseverance, endurance, patient enduring, patience, steadfastness but never preservation.
These are all qualities that the saved individual is to exhibit in their Christian lives.

The BDAG (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition [January 15, 2001]), on page 1039 concurs. And, of course, Calvin, writing in Latin, used the word “perseverare” rather than the word “conservatio.”

 

[JD731]

Total Depravity: The lost can only be saved by means of a gift, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.

Unmerited Conditional Election: One cannot be elect except by means of faith in the gospel, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 1:16.

Limited Not Atonement: A not limited Atonement is necessary in order for one to really know Christ gives one eternal life, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:9-13.

Irresistible Grace: Salvation is a gift, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:23, 1 John 5:13.

Perseverance of the Saints: God who does the saving does the keeping, John 10:27-30.

What is the point?

 

[Revmitchell]

If God looks at something we do (faith in the gospel) and responds with election”, then that is the very definition of a works based salvation.

show me in scripture this is the case

 

[canadyjd]

You make a number of philosophical comments but that is just you opinion. So please stop being evasive.

One more post to you.

I have clearly stated my opinion. That is not being evasive.

You have stated falsehoods about what my opinion is.

Since I spoke very clearly, never stating salvation comes before faith, you must not be reading my posts or (more likely) you prefer regurgitating falsehoods rather than actually addressing what I have stated.

Whichever is the case, responding to you is a waste of time and cyber space.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

show me in scripture this is the case

I’ll let you find it on your own. We remember things better when we search the scriptures ourselves.

Hint,,,, It’s somewhere in the back.

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

The Totally Depraved with Total Inability Ungodly sinner,

the ungodly

Under the instramentality and the Holy Spirit using the means
of "the Gospel (message as it) was preached to Abraham" (for one example)

that Ungodly sinner is Enabled to Spiritually understand and
is Granted Repentence and Given Faith (I will win this one)
AND SPIRITUALLY REGENERATED in the New Birth.

They have been Given the Ability to Believe Jesus Paid their sin debt
And that God Accepted Jesus' Payment for them, AND their sin is Pardoned.

believeth on him

Along with this Pardoning of their sins,
they have Jesus Righteous Imputed/Credited to them.

That is the Righteousness that was Jesus' that He had Earned under the Law,
That HAS NOW BECOME THE PARDONED SINNER'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.

God sees 'their' righteousness, now, as them being without sin,
And with no guilt charged to their Account and so, GOD JUSTIFIES THEM.

"WHOM HE CALLS THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIES"

justifieth

That Newly Saved soul's FAITH they had been Given
Was In The Person and Work of Jesus,

his faith

The Newly Saved soul's FAITH was in The Object of their Faith, Jesus,
And it is the Object of their Faith, JESUS, Who's RIGHTEOUSNESS
THAT HAS NOW BEEN CREDITED TO THEM,

For having Faith on Him,

on Him

FAITH ON JESUS, JESUS WHO POSSESSED RIGHTEOUSNESS,

righteousness

THEN, ONCE JESUS' RIGHTEOUSNESS BECOMES THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS,
Again, it is then THEIR VERY OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS,

to him that worketh not,

THEN,

"THEIR FAITH IS COUNTED UNTO THEM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

counted for

righteousness

It is the Righteousness of the Object of their Faith (they have been Given),
AND THAT WAS Jesus' Righteousness (that had also been Given to them)
that is "counted to them for righteousness".

It is not faith or righteousness that Originated with the sinner.

It's their faith they were Given.

And yet, it's their righteousness, too, all right.

After God Imputes Jesus' Righteousness to them.

 

[Revmitchell]

I’ll let you find it on your own. We remember things better when we search the scriptures ourselves.

Hint,,,, It’s somewhere in the back.

peace to you

Hmmm I already know the answer. It's not there. I am asking you to support your claim with scripture.

 

[37818]

What is the point?

Using the five points of Calvinism as the templet. To present what I understand should be the Biblical truths on those five issues. Unfortunately not all Biblical Christians can agree on those five points.