Featured Calvinist template.

I have been in this forum for years. I can remember only a couple of times when a civil discussion about a specific passage has taken place.

However, I’ll start another thread so we don’t hijack this one. See you there

peace to you

 

Your words @canadyjd in post # 24

"One view has God responding to what someone does and then making them “elect”.

My view has folks responding to what God does. That demonstrates God’s grace."


One is either saved before they believe, Calvinism, or they are saved after they believe, biblical.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?


Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

So we see that God actually does respond to what someone does, they believe and He/God saves them thus they become one of the elect.

 

Maybe try here, plus the link reference to The BLCF:

Abraham’s Faith

 

I am not looking at G5281 and don’t know what passage you are pulling it from.

I am looking at what Scripture states clearly. Please see my post #4, this thread.

 

With G5281 I looked at all the passages where it is found in all the bibles I listed and those were the results I found.

Now as to Eph 1:12-13 & 1Pe 1:3-5 I may be wrong in this but it seems you are looking at them through an OSAS perspective.

While God will indeed preserve those that continue in faith He will not force anyone to do so. We have ample proof of those that have fallen away from the truth once received.

 

I don’t know how G5281 got into the discussion, where it was referenced, what passage or word, so I cannot comment on it.

I absolutely believe in eternal security, but I will discuss it when I am at a keyboard

 

You had referenced preservation of the saints in post # 30

"That’s why it is properly called the preservation of the saints.
If I cannot save myself, it follows that I cannot keep myself"

So I looked for it in the bible and the result was as shown. I believe in "eternal" security for those that continue to believe. God will not force anyone to be with Him that does not want to be.

This is a good description of what I see in the bible.
1. steadfastness, constancy, endurance
a. in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings Thayer's Unabridged Greek - english Lexicon

 

Ephesians 1:12. so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.
13. In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; (NRSV)

In the Greek text, Ephesians 1:12-13 is a small fraction of a very long sentence that comprises Eph. 1:3-14, the entire sentence being a doxology in which the main clause (an independent and autonomous unit of expression that can be correctly punctuated as a sentence) is “Blessed be the God and Father” found in v. 3. Everything else in this very long sentence is part of a lengthy series of subordinate phrases and clauses supporting the statement in the main clause. Therefore, Eph. 1:3-14 is not a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done for us, and what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.

In v. 13, we read that in Christ we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. The seal spoken of in this context is the Holy Spirit who signifies our now being the property of the King with all the benefits of that ownership. Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like peaches being sealed in a Mason jar is far off the mark. The only thing that the seal does guarantee is that we who are in the process of believing [the significance of the Greek present tense] in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King. We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases. Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to making an audaciously insubordinate claim, it is to outright deny of the holiness and majesty of God.

1 Peter 1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
5. who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As we see here, the Greek word φρουρέω (protected) does not express the concept of being preserved but rather the concept of being protected—and again we have here a doxology and these verses must be understood accordingly.

 

I LIKE IT!

I LIKE IT, I LIKE IT!

YOU ALREADY KNOW! VERY GOOD STUFF!

 

Kept, preserved, protected.

No difference.

Perseverance—by my might, by my power, not by the Spirit of the Lord.

I am not preserved because I persevere, but I persevere because I am preserved. Ephesians 2:10.

 

Notice that, as per your view, the person will be preserved as long as they walk in them. God prepared them that we should not would walk in them.

we should walk G4043 (G5661)

G5661
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Subjunctive See [G5792]

G5792
Mood-Subjunctive
The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality.
The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.

 

You very much imply salvation is a performance issue.

If so, no need of Christ dying in my stead.

 

The only think required of man is faith. That is not a performance issue. If one does not have faith then one is not saved.

 

What sin can cost one’s salvation since it was finished at the cross? Did the Lord not carry every sin of a born again person?

 

Unbelief. If one does not continue to believe in God as we have seen happen then why would you think that God would force them to be with Him for eternity?

Actually Christ carried away all sin but logically if one does not believe then that can not be forgiven can it. If one does not believe then they are not born again and if they latter, after trusting in God, turn away into unbelief then they are no longer saved.

No one can snatch a saved individual from God's hand but the sinner can remove himself from God's hand. It's called apostasy.

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

 

I think you don’t understand John 1:11-13, John 3:3, 3:7, and 2 Corinthians 5:17.

You still appear to think salvation is a performance issue, an earned state, Christ can’t change a person, we have to save ourselves because He doesn’t actually change hearts.

So be it. You control your salvation. I gave up control when I gave myself to Him.

 

I understand those verses very well. They are in reference to those that are saved by God through faith.

Are you coming form a calvinist point of view re salvation? Do you think faith is a work? Do you think one is saved and then God gives them faith to believe?

The only control that anyone has over their salvation is whether they believe or not. Their faith does not save anyone but it is the condition God has set that He will save them.

I am surprised at you comments as you have read and agreed with enough of my post that you should know my position on salvation.

Where it seems you are having a problem is whether a person can loose or turn away from God once they are saved.

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

What is Paul saying here? The Jews were cutoff due to UNBELIEF. He is warning the Gentile believers that the same could happen to them if they do not continue in belief.

Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

No Calvinism. Faith is not a work. It is how God requires we receive His grace toward us—believing His Word and His Son. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not by a mysterious gifting. One is convicted of sin and of being a sinner, Godly sorrow works repentance, one believes the Scripture and is converted, regenerated, saved.

Then everything changes. There’s a new creation. All is new. One’s spirit is made alive to God and made one with Christ’s Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17). He is known of God, made a partaker of the divine nature, one of Christ’s sheep. The Spirit of Christ in the believer will never let him go. He is in God’s hands. Christ loses no sheep. His never perish. Never means never. One has eternal life. Eternal means eternal, not temporary. What is joined to Christ will never go to hell.

The problem is people have a religious experience and think they’re saved. They look good for a time. Some even preach. But there’s no root, they’re not in Christ (think of the Parable of the Sower, only 25% actually brought forth fruit, and of Matthew 7:21-23—they claimed salvation by their great performance but were never born again; Christ NEVER knew them—they only had a religious experience of some kind).

I believe when a person is saved there IS performance, there is fruit (some thirty fold, some sixty, some a hundred) but the performance, the fruit, their perseverance, does not keep them saved. The ROOT is Who keeps them, preserves them; without Christ we can do nothing to save ourselves nor keep ourselves. What is born of flesh is still flesh and fleshly good works save no one, nor does dead faith. The Holy Spirit God puts into the saved person keeps the person forever, and brings forth fruit and manifests works pleasing to God, by the Spirit, not by flesh.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth IN ME, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith OF the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The Lord Jesus is in every saved person by the Holy Spirit and He is not going to die a second death, nor is the person He is in. The saved person is kept, preserved, by the power of God, not his own power. Apart from Him, we are weak, powerless, but through Christ in us we have His strength.

The broken off branches refers to Israel nationally. Israel nationally will be restored. They were broken off nationally nearly 2000 years but many individuals were saved by trusting Christ. Israel nationally will be restored eventually, meanwhile individuals are still being saved (Romans 1:16).

I have agreed with you because you have been right to oppose the errors of Calvinism. The point they almost had right (Eternal Security), they even got it wrong because of trusting their perseverance (human effort) instead of trusting the work of the Holy Spirit that preserves the believer, enabling him to persevere. When a person is saved, it’s all of Christ, as we walk in the Spirit.

Once saved, always saved, is true—but a person has to get the “once” before he can get the “always”. About 3 out of 4 of the “professors” have never been “possessors”, thus all the apostasy on the internet, TV preachers, false apostles and false prophets, and tares in the churches.

Make your calling and election SURE. Examine yourselves—know ye not that Christ is in you, except ye be reprobate? If He’s in you, it’s forever. Make sure He is. Don’t just take it for granted, and fool oneself.