Genuine Salvation is Forever

[MrW]

I NEVER knew you. Matt. 7:21-23.

My sheep shall never perish. John 10:28.

Inescapable. Face it. IF one is saved, it is forever.

If you disagree, you disagree with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Make your calling and election sure.

 

[Silverhair]

But then they would never have been saved (saved from the judgment) because they experience the thing they were supposedly saved from.

That's the issue with applying a past tence word to a future event without a concrete status. The event proves or disproves the validity.

The former belief in Christ was illegitimate (it was not a saving faith as evidenced by the lack of salvation).

We see this throughout Scripture (with the Jews who were ultimately lost although they believed themselves God's people, with the believers who possessed a useless belief, with those who cry "Lord, Lord" but hear "I never knew you", with the command to test oneself to see if one is truly saved, etc.).

You and I would agree that those found without faith are lost. Our disagreement is whether they were at one time saved.

My point is the ultimate proof is not in believing one is saved at a moment in time but actually escaping that wrath to come.

I agree that our disagreement is whether one who is saved can latter repudiate that faith so as to be lost.

We see many warnings in scripture about holding fast, not falling away, being steadfast, immovable. I think we can agree that the people getting these warnings are at that time true believers. So the question becomes why warnings if the possibility of apostasy is not real?

A saving faith is a present faith but to say that just because one latter denies that faith equals them never having believed unto salvation is unfounded.

That to me sounds more like Calvin's Evanescent faith or what I hear from the OSAS group that they never really were saved. But again this raises the question, why the warnings?

 

[Silverhair]

The New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the Covenant God keeps. Verse 34, . . . for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That means those whom God accepts in His New Covenant are permanetly forgiven. See Revelation 3:5, Revelation 20:6. The lost no longer have their name in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those that have trusted in Christ will be saved and he will not remember their sins. But what you continue to overlook is al the warnings about holding fast, not turning away. Are these warnings just window dressing?

The only way someone can hold fast to something or fall away from something is if they in fact have that something. You can not hold fast to faith you do not have and you can not fall away from faith you do not have.

The reality is that people do in fact fall away and deny Christ so as to be lost. Does God save those that continue to believe YES but that is the condition they continue to believe.

 

[JonC]

Do you believe in P of TULIP?

Not in the context of Calvinism.

I believe that those who are of His house, are those who hold firm until the end where Calvinism is more like those who are of His house will hold firm until the end. Those are different (Calvinism holding the state today concludes a future state while I believe the future....holding firm to the end....defines the present).

 

[JonC]

I agree that our disagreement is whether one who is saved can latter repudiate that faith so as to be lost.

We see many warnings in scripture about holding fast, not falling away, being steadfast, immovable. I think we can agree that the people getting these warnings are at that time true believers. So the question becomes why warnings if the possibility of apostasy is not real?

A saving faith is a present faith but to say that just because one latter denies that faith equals them never having believed unto salvation is unfounded.

That to me sounds more like Calvin's Evanescent faith or what I hear from the OSAS group that they never really were saved. But again this raises the question, why the warnings?

The difference isn't about the person but whether the salvation was true (we agree on the person).

I can't read Hebrews and believe salvation can be lost because those people do not hold firm to the end and were not "of His house".

 

[MrW]

I agree that our disagreement is whether one who is saved can latter repudiate that faith so as to be lost.

We see many warnings in scripture about holding fast, not falling away, being steadfast, immovable. I think we can agree that the people getting these warnings are at that time true believers. So the question becomes why warnings if the possibility of apostasy is not real?

A saving faith is a present faith but to say that just because one latter denies that faith equals them never having believed unto salvation is unfounded.

That to me sounds more like Calvin's Evanescent faith or what I hear from the OSAS group that they never really were saved. But again this raises the question, why the warnings?

I answered that question already. “Make your calling an election sure.”

The people in Matthew 7 thought they were saved, because of the great works they did for God. Yet, they were not saved. Look at YouTube. Look at TV. There are many, many people who profess to be saved, they profess that they go to heaven And come back to earth, they claim to be apostles and prophets, and yet it appears they’re not even saved. We are in the Laodicean church age, we are in the age of apostasy. We need to make our calling and election sure.

And I don’t care how many preachers backslide. That does not change the truth of God‘s Word. I believe the Word of God. Let God be true, and every man, a liar.

Jesus said depart from me I never knew you. He did not say I used to know you, but I forgot you, and He said He knows His sheep by name, and His sheep never perish. Therefore, what I need to do is make sure that I am one of his sheep. Paul said if we judge ourselves, we will not be judged. We need to judge ourselves and make sure that we’re trusting Christ and not ourselves.

I spent years believing just as you do, but God showed me in Scripture that He is the one who saves people, and He never makes a mistake.

It’s really this simple—if I cannot save myself, then neither can I keep myself saved. I must depend on the Lord Jesus Christ to save me, and to keep me, and He is the one I am trusting. There is great joy and peace in knowing that the Lord Jesus saves me, and the Lord Jesus keeps me, and I never take it for granted. I am in awe that He would save me. I rejoice to trust Him. I’m a new creature; impossible to detransform back to the old. The Holy Spirit in me will not allow that to happen.
Romans 5:1-2.

 

[37818]

But what you continue to overlook is al the warnings about holding fast, not turning away.

Reference?

Those that have trusted in Christ will be saved and he will not remember their sins. But what you continue to overlook is al the warnings about holding fast, not turning away. Are these warnings just window dressing?

The only way someone can hold fast to something or fall away from something is if they in fact have that something. You can not hold fast to faith you do not have and you can not fall away from faith you do not have.

The reality is that people do in fact fall away and deny Christ so as to be lost. Does God save those that continue to believe YES but that is the condition they continue to believe.

That is what you believe is going on with exchristians.
I don't. The New Covenant is the Covenat God keeps, not those He saves, in order to keep their salvation. God is not a liar. [We, I think, agree on that.] John 10:28-29, Jeremiah 31:34, 1 John 5:9-13. Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, 2 Corinthians 13:5. John 17:3.

 

[robycop3]

Q. If a man turns away from his faith will God force him to be in heaven even though he does not believe in God anymore?

A. If he CAN turn away, he will, because he has never been born again, never been saved, and never knew Christ and He never knew them who do so. He is a hog that was washed (outwardly) but still has a hog’s heart, a hog’s nature, and will revert to his wallowing in the mud of sin. They remain hogs and never were transformed into sheep.

Christ’s sheep are known of Him, known by name, and while Christ NEVER knew the lost, yet He knows all His sheep and His sheep shall NEVER perish.

The new birth is REAL, and one who has been supernaturally transformed into that new creation, made a partaker of the divine nature, fitted for Heaven, CANNOT revert back to being the slug he once was, fit only for hell, any more than a butterfly can revert to being a crawling caterpillar worm again. His will is now found in God’s will, for He lives to do the will of Him Who gave him the new birth of His own will, a new heart after God’s heart, and a new life in Christ Jesus, walking no longer by the flesh but by the Holy Spirit of God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[37818]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves he Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[Silverhair]

The difference isn't about the person but whether the salvation was true (we agree on the person).

I can't read Hebrews and believe salvation can be lost because those people do not hold firm to the end and were not "of His house".

So are you saying that those that do not hold true to the end actually were never saved? Am I reading you correctly?

 

[JonC]

So are you saying that those that do not hold true to the end actually were never saved? Am I reading you correctly?

Yes.

Hebrews 3:5–6 (NASB95): ere to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

 

[Silverhair]

I answered that question already. “Make your calling an election sure.”

The people in Matthew 7 thought they were saved, because of the great works they did for God. Yet, they were not saved. Look at YouTube. Look at TV. There are many, many people who profess to be saved, they profess that they go to heaven And come back to earth, they claim to be apostles and prophets, and yet it appears they’re not even saved. We are in the Laodicean church age, we are in the age of apostasy. We need to make our calling and election sure.

And I don’t care how many preachers backslide. That does not change the truth of God‘s Word. I believe the Word of God. Let God be true, and every man, a liar.

Jesus said depart from me I never knew you. He did not say I used to know you, but I forgot you, and He said He knows His sheep by name, and His sheep never perish. Therefore, what I need to do is make sure that I am one of his sheep. Paul said if we judge ourselves, we will not be judged. We need to judge ourselves and make sure that we’re trusting Christ and not ourselves.

I spent years believing just as you do, but God showed me in Scripture that He is the one who saves people, and He never makes a mistake.

It’s really this simple—if I cannot save myself, then neither can I keep myself saved. I must depend on the Lord Jesus Christ to save me, and to keep me, and He is the one I am trusting. There is great joy and peace in knowing that the Lord Jesus saves me, and the Lord Jesus keeps me, and I never take it for granted. I am in awe that He would save me. I rejoice to trust Him. I’m a new creature; impossible to detransform back to the old. The Holy Spirit in me will not allow that to happen.
Romans 5:1-2.

@MrW I agree with much of what you have written. God keeps those that trust in Him and that is the point I have been trying to make. Those that continue to believe in Him are kept but He does not force anyone to stay trusting in Him.

Note the conditions that we see in the following verses.

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Rev_2:25 'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.

Those that do hold fast will be saved logically if they do not hold fast they will be lost. The bible is clear that it is the responsibility of those that have once trusted in Christ Jesus to continue in that trust. If one no longer believes the gospel message then are they still saved, NO.

If it is not possible for man to turn from the Christ their once followed then why all the warning passages/ Do you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes.

Hebrews 3:5–6 (NASB95): ere to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

So why all the warning passages. Who were they meant for? You can not warn a person against falling away from something they do not actually believe.

Even in Heb 3:5-6 we see that for the person to be part of the House of Christ they have to hold fast which indicates that they could in fact fall away. To say they were never saved in the first place is reading to much into the text.

 

[37818]

Hebrews 6:4, having tasted of the heavenly gift, is not to had the possession of it.

 

[Silverhair]

Reference?

That is what you believe is going on with exchristians.
I don't. The New Covenant is the Covenat God keeps, not those He saves, in order to keep their salvation. God is not a liar. [We, I think, agree on that.] John 10:28-29, Jeremiah 31:34, 1 John 5:9-13. Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, 2 Corinthians 13:5. John 17:3.

Heb_3:6, Heb_3:14, Heb_4:14, Rev_2:25, Rom 11:22, 1Co 15:2, Heb 10:38-39, 2Pe 2:20-21

I note you use the term "exchristians" so you concede that Christians can become ex-christians, they no longer believe.

The only way for one to become an ex-christian is to have been one at some time. God does not force people to believe in Him for salvation nor does He force people to stay in Him if they choose forsake the salvation they had.

God saves those that want to be saved, those that continue to believe in Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Hebrews 6:4, having tasted of the heavenly gift, is not to had the possession of it.

Read the verse in context.
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

enlightened G5461 to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
have tasted G1089 perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
partakers G3353 sharing in, partaking
the powers G1411 moral power and excellence of soul
repentance G3341 change of mind from evil to good or from good to better

they fall away G3895 to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah

The context shows that the person had to have been a Christian or they could not fall away could they?

 

[JonC]

So why all the warning passages. Who were they meant for? You can not warn a person against falling away from something they do not actually believe.

Even in Heb 3:5-6 we see that for the person to be part of the House of Christ they have to hold fast which indicates that they could in fact fall away. To say they were never saved in the first place is reading to much into the text.

You have to remember tge context and audience.

The warning passages are to the Hebrews who accepted Christianity as the fulfillment of the Hebrew religion.

These people were being influenced by a movement we refer to as the Judaizers. This was a Jewish evangelistic movement to those who had left the Hebrew faith.

Put yourself in that audience.

Should you return to the old Hebrew religion, javing been enlightened of its meaning, what wouks you return to?

you woukd return to teachings about Christ, a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, instructions (detailed instructions) about washings and laying on of hands, teachings of tge resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

BUT you would be looking for a Christ, looking for those things to be fulfiled, and crucified Christ to yourself, putting Him to open shame.

Those Hebrews had been enlightened and had tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.

They realized the interpretation of the Hebrew religion. But how could they be renewed again to repentance should they return to searching for the Christ? They couldn't. It'd be impossible because He had come.

Hebrews 6:7-8 is essential in interpreting the text (obviously, given the first of verse 7). But so is realizing Hebrews was written to Hebrews.


The warning is not about falling away from salvation (falling away from being "of His house"). This is, again, obvious because those "of His house" ate those who hold firm to the end (not those who do not hold firm to the end).


The "falling away" is, simply put, not becoming unsaved. It is literally falling away from tge conclusion of the old Hebrew religion (Christ and the New Covenant).

 

[JonC]

Even in Heb 3:5-6 we see that for the person to be part of the House of Christ they have to hold fast which indicates that they could in fact fall away. To say they were never saved in the first place is reading to much into the text.

I'm answering this in two parts. I don't typically like doing thus but I think it helps for clarity. I apologize if you find it inconvenient.

Hebrews 3:5-6 does not state that people can be a part of His house and then fall away.

Here is the passage:

Hebrews 3:5–6 (NASB95): Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

We are of His house IF we hold fast to the end.

There are no passages that state we are of His house even if we do not hold fast until the end.

This leads to my question.

Given this passage, which you provided, why do you believe that those who fall away - those who did NOT hold fast to the end- were "of His house"??

 

[37818]

I note you use the term "exchristians" so you concede that Christians can become ex-christians, they no longer believe.

You suppose and are mistaken.
And yes, they believe they were.
Testimonies of Former Christians

Here is the problem. Actual Christians know God and His three distinct Persons. John 17:3, Romans 8:9 and Romans 8:16.

 

[37818]

Read the verse in context.
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

enlightened G5461 to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
have tasted G1089 perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
partakers G3353 sharing in, partaking
the powers G1411 moral power and excellence of soul
repentance G3341 change of mind from evil to good or from good to better

they fall away G3895 to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah

Yes. Where in that context did it say those were saved? It doesn't.

And the text says "and" fall away. Not if.