Genuine Salvation is Forever

[Silverhair]

You have to remember tge context and audience.

The warning passages are to the Hebrews who accepted Christianity as the fulfillment of the Hebrew religion.

These people were being influenced by a movement we refer to as the Judaizers. This was a Jewish evangelistic movement to those who had left the Hebrew faith.

Put yourself in that audience.

Should you return to the old Hebrew religion, javing been enlightened of its meaning, what wouks you return to?

you woukd return to teachings about Christ, a foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, instructions (detailed instructions) about washings and laying on of hands, teachings of tge resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

BUT you would be looking for a Christ, looking for those things to be fulfiled, and crucified Christ to yourself, putting Him to open shame.

Those Hebrews had been enlightened and had tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.

They realized the interpretation of the Hebrew religion. But how could they be renewed again to repentance should they return to searching for the Christ? They couldn't. It'd be impossible because He had come.

Hebrews 6:7-8 is essential in interpreting the text (obviously, given the first of verse 7). But so is realizing Hebrews was written to Hebrews.


The warning is not about falling away from salvation (falling away from being "of His house"). This is, again, obvious because those "of His house" ate those who hold firm to the end (not those who do not hold firm to the end).


The "falling away" is, simply put, not becoming unsaved. It is literally falling away from tge conclusion of the old Hebrew religion (Christ and the New Covenant).

@JonC I have to disagree with your interpretation of these text's. To me it is obvious that the letter is written to Hebrews that have actually trusted in Christ Jesus.

Look at the text
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Those that have trusted in God for their salvation are those that fit the conditions listed. They are speaking of Jews that have left the old faith of laws and have trusted in the risen Christ. They recognize Him as their awaited Messiah. They are part of "His house"

If any of them should fall away and turn back to the law or incorporate the Jewish laws into their faith then they have turned away from salvation through faith in Christ to a salvation based on works. They are no longer part of "His house" they are lost. And as we see in the text they are actually in worse condition because they have now rejected the only means of salvation so to convince them that Christ os the only way would not be impossible.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm answering this in two parts. I don't typically like doing thus but I think it helps for clarity. I apologize if you find it inconvenient.

Hebrews 3:5-6 does not state that people can be a part of His house and then fall away.

Here is the passage:

Hebrews 3:5–6 (NASB95): Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

We are of His house IF we hold fast to the end.

There are no passages that state we are of His house even if we do not hold fast until the end.

This leads to my question.

Given this passage, which you provided, why do you believe that those who fall away - those who did NOT hold fast to the end- were "of His house"??

Note your words "those who fall away". The author is writing to Jews and informing them that while they are of Christ's house now if they do not hold fast to their faith in Him to the end they will no longer be of His house.

Faith in Christ is the condition for being part of His house is it not? Thus we see the condition stated "if we hold fast...to the end."

 

[JonC]

@JonC I have to disagree with your interpretation of these text's. To me it is obvious that the letter is written to Hebrews that have actually trusted in Christ Jesus.

Look at the text
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Those that have trusted in God for their salvation are those that fit the conditions listed. They are speaking of Jews that have left the old faith of laws and have trusted in the risen Christ. They recognize Him as their awaited Messiah. They are part of "His house"

If any of them should fall away and turn back to the law or incorporate the Jewish laws into their faith then they have turned away from salvation through faith in Christ to a salvation based on works. They are no longer part of "His house" they are lost. And as we see in the text they are actually in worse condition because they have now rejected the only means of salvation so to convince them that Christ os the only way would not be impossible.

The problem is that if this is a Hebrew audience then there is no actual indication that the audience is saved.

There are several reasons:

First, the writer of Hebrews has already stated that those "of His house" are the ones who hold fast to the end. So we at least know that nobody "of His house" will fall away.

Now, I view those "of His house" to be those who are saved. So that may be a point of disagreement.

Second, there is no internal evidence to suggest that those who fall away were saved IF the audience is Hebrew. If the epistle was written to a Hebrew audience then the foundation had already been laid by tge old Hebrew religion and explained by Christ. Every item in the passage relates to the old Hebrew religion (teachings about Christ, experiencing the gifts of God, etc.) explained by Christianity.

Third, salvation is being saved from a future event (judgment). One cannot be legitimately saved from what is yet to come and later not be saved (a logical issue, not necessarily a passage).

Fourth, those who fall away have "an evil, unbelieving heart". That does not equate to belief.


But in these passages, the biggest obstacle is that one cannot believe that those "of His house" or "partakers of Christ" and also that these can fall away without denying passages in Hebrews 3.


Hebrews 3:6: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:12–14: Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

 

[JonC]

Note your words "those who fall away". The author is writing to Jews and informing them that while they are of Christ's house now if they do not hold fast to their faith in Him to the end they will no longer be of His house.

Faith in Christ is the condition for being part of His house is it not? Thus we see the condition stated "if we hold fast...to the end."

How do you know since that is not what the Bible actually states?


Hebrews 3:6: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Those who are of His house, per Scripture, are those who hold fast to the end.


Hebrews 3:12–14: Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


The audience is told to take care that they do not have an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away.

We have become partakers in Chriat IF we hold fast tge beginning of our assurance firm until the end.


I can't agree with you and affirm Scripture at the same time. That said, we would agree on who is actually saved and who is lost at tge end.

 

[Silverhair]

You suppose and are mistaken.
And yes, they believe they were.
Testimonies of Former Christians

Here is the problem. Actual Christians know God and His three distinct Persons. John 17:3, Romans 8:9 and Romans 8:16.

Yes actual Christians know the three persons of the Godhead. But that still does not support your view that they could not fall away.

How do you understand these verses?
Gal 4:8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

These people were know by God, they were Christians.

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Here again we see Christians. If they decide to put themselves under the law then they are no longer Christians. By their action they "have been severed from Christ" and "have fallen from grace"

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. Where in that context did it say those were saved? It doesn't.

And the text says "and" fall away. Not if.

You are just ignoring what the text says. If those verses do not indicate Christians what do they indicate?

What do the words; enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, powers of the age to come mean you? Also what does, renew them again to repentance mean? And what did they fall away from?

 

[Silverhair]

The problem is that if this is a Hebrew audience then there is no actual indication that the audience is saved.

There are several reasons:

First, the writer of Hebrews has already stated that those "of His house" are the ones who hold fast to the end. So we at least know that nobody "of His house" will fall away.

Now, I view those "of His house" to be those who are saved. So that may be a point of disagreement.

Second, there is no internal evidence to suggest that those who fall away were saved IF the audience is Hebrew. If the epistle was written to a Hebrew audience then the foundation had already been laid by tge old Hebrew religion and explained by Christ. Every item in the passage relates to the old Hebrew religion (teachings about Christ, experiencing the gifts of God, etc.) explained by Christianity.

Third, salvation is being saved from a future event (judgment). One cannot be legitimately saved from what is yet to come and later not be saved (a logical issue, not necessarily a passage).

Fourth, those who fall away have "an evil, unbelieving heart". That does not equate to belief.


But in these passages, the biggest obstacle is that one cannot believe that those "of His house" or "partakers of Christ" and also that these can fall away without denying passages in Hebrews 3.


Hebrews 3:6: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:12–14: Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

There is every indication to say that these are Christians in view here. This is shown by Heb 6:6 “and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,”

First if these are not Christians then what have they fallen away from?

Second if these are not Christians why do they need to be renewed to repentance?

This passage can be view in two ways:

1] As fact about Christians that have fallen away

2] As a warning to Christians of the consequences of falling away

Christians are the body of Christ and the temple of God. As long as one believes that is their position. If they subsequently reject Christ then they are logically not in that position.



God’s household is always marked by faith, whether in the OT or NT. Those you believe are His house if one no longer has faith they are no longer of His house. So we see that those of His house can and sometimes do fall away.

I agree that salvation is a logical issue. Having said that, it is because of the hope of ones future salvation that one says they are saved now and from future judgment. That salvation is based upon one’s trust in the risen Christ so if one no longer places their trust in Him then they would be considered unsaved or apostate and under the wrath of God.

We do not have to deny either Heb 3:6 or Heb 3:12-14. We just have to understand what the text is saying.

One is saved when they trust in the risen Christ and if the continue to believe they will be eternally saved when they meet the risen Christ in heaven. We are of His house and partakers of Christ now and will continue to be as long as we continue to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

How do you know since that is not what the Bible actually states?


Hebrews 3:6: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Those who are of His house, per Scripture, are those who hold fast to the end.


Hebrews 3:12–14: Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


The audience is told to take care that they do not have an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away.

We have become partakers in Chriat IF we hold fast tge beginning of our assurance firm until the end.


I can't agree with you and affirm Scripture at the same time. That said, we would agree on who is actually saved and who is lost at tge end.

One is saved when one believes not at end of life. We are partakers of Christ when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit which happens in time not at some future date. As long as one continues to believe then they will be saved at end of life.

We were saved
We are being saved
We will be saved

 

[Craigbythesea]

By the term, salvation has to be eternal. Otherwise it is potential to be saved" (which may be the intended meaning some have when using the word).

The reason is that salvation points to being saved from something that will occur in the future. If one is saved then they are saved.

Matt. 1:21. She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (NRSV)

In the New Testament, salvation is from sin. If a Christian reverts to his sins, what is he still saved from?

 

[37818]

enlightened G5461 to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge

2 Peter 2:20-21, . . . For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. . . .

Romans 4:4-5. Not the mere knowing by which one is saved, but trusting God. Genesis 15:6.

 

[Silverhair]

2 Peter 2:20-21, . . . For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. . . .

Romans 4:4-5. Not the mere knowing by which one is saved, but trusting God. Genesis 15:6.

Yes those that have been enlightened know God and are known by Him but that does not prevent them from turning away. I would hope that any that knew God would continue in Him but reality shows that is not the case.

 

[37818]

[QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2879349, member: 16797"j]Yes those that have been enlightened know God and are known by Him but that does not prevent them from turning away. I would hope that any that knew God would continue in Him but reality shows that is not the case.[/QUOTE]
We disagree.
Jesus taught in His prayer, . . . And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [John17:3] The Apostle Paul explained, . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [Romans 8;9]

The Apostle John wrote, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [ 1 John 5:12 ]

Again Paul taught that the LORD had said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. [Hebrews 13:5]

Genuine salvation is permanet.

 

[JonC]

Matt. 1:21. She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (NRSV)

In the New Testament, salvation is from sin. If a Christian reverts to his sins, what is he still saved from?

If a Christiam reverts to sin how was he ever saved from them?

 

[JonC]

One is saved when one believes not at end of life. We are partakers of Christ when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit which happens in time not at some future date. As long as one continues to believe then they will be saved at end of life.

We were saved
We are being saved
We will be saved

I think we are using different definitions.

I believe those who are saved are those who have "become partakers of Christ", those who are "of His house".

Scripture tells us that those "of His house", those who "have become partakers of Christ", are those who hold fast until the end.


Hebrews 3:6: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:12–14: Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

 

[Silverhair]

I think we are using different definitions.

I believe those who are saved are those who have "become partakers of Christ", those who are "of His house".

Scripture tells us that those "of His house", those who "have become partakers of Christ", are those who hold fast until the end.


Hebrews 3:6: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:12–14: Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

I see one as saved at the time that they trust in Christ Jesus whereas you only see them saved at their end of life. We use the same verses but put a different emphasis on the words.

@JonC you wrote "I believe those who are saved are those who have "become partakers of Christ", those who are "of His house"."YES, but where you see this happening when or after they die if they die in faith, I see it as their position now and will continue to be as long as they believe.

Did I get your understanding correct?

In the end it is only those that have faith in Christ Jesus that are included.

 

[Silverhair]

[QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2879349, member: 16797"j]Yes those that have been enlightened know God and are known by Him but that does not prevent them from turning away. I would hope that any that knew God would continue in Him but reality shows that is not the case.

We disagree.
Jesus taught in His prayer, . . . And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. [John17:3] The Apostle Paul explained, . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [Romans 8;9]

The Apostle John wrote, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [ 1 John 5:12 ]

Again Paul taught that the LORD had said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. [Hebrews 13:5]

Genuine salvation is permanet.[/QUOTE]

These verse do not do anything to bolster your case. You have not dealt with the warning verses. If you can not over turn them then you do not have a case.

Those that believe in Christ will be saved, those that do not will be lost. What you have still not shown is that one that has trusted in Christ cannot at a latter point reject Him.

The OSAS and Evanescent faith views are just saying the same thing. Well they never really believed did they.
The problem for both views is the bible warns against falling away. And one can only fall away from a place they have been or a position that they have held.

 

[JonC]

I see one as saved at the time that they trust in Christ Jesus whereas you only see them saved at their end of life. We use the same verses but put a different emphasis on the words.

@JonC you wrote "I believe those who are saved are those who have "become partakers of Christ", those who are "of His house"."YES, but where you see this happening when or after they die if they die in faith, I see it as their position now and will continue to be as long as they believe.

Did I get your understanding correct?

In the end it is only those that have faith in Christ Jesus that are included.

No, not exactly.

I believe one is saved the moment they believe. But I understand this type of belief that saves is one that cannot change. It is a faith that holds fast until the end


Part of the reason I believe this is I understand being "of His house" and "partakers of Christ" to refer to salvation itself and Scripture explicitly states that those who are "of His house" and "partakers of Christ" are those who hold fast to the end which woukd exclude those who fall away.

So the question we ask ourselves is what in our time demonstrates that we are members of "His house" and "partakers of Christ" if we must hold fast to the end.

 

[37818]

.

These verse do not do anything to bolster your case. You have not dealt with the warning verses. If you can not over turn them then you do not have a case.

We do not understand their obedience in the same way.

What you have still not shown is that one that has trusted in Christ cannot at a latter point reject Him.

Your understanding of those instructions as warnings cannot prevent those yet lost from a no return denial.

The OSAS and Evanescent faith views are just saying the same thing. Well they never really believed did they.
The problem for both views is the bible warns against falling away. And one can only fall away from a place they have been or a position that they have held.

By what means do you believe any of those perceived warnings are to be obeyed to prevent denial of the faith?

Do you believe 2 Peter 1:4-10?

 

[Silverhair]

No, not exactly.

I believe one is saved the moment they believe. But I understand this type of belief that saves is one that cannot change. It is a faith that holds fast until the end


Part of the reason I believe this is I understand being "of His house" and "partakers of Christ" to refer to salvation itself and Scripture explicitly states that those who are "of His house" and "partakers of Christ" are those who hold fast to the end which woukd exclude those who fall away.

So the question we ask ourselves is what in our time demonstrates that we are members of "His house" and "partakers of Christ" if we must hold fast to the end.

On this we agree, one is saved the moment they believe. Where we differ is on the "if". That to me is the hinge point.

Those that continue to believe is, to me, clearly pointed to by the little word "if".

I mean if the author had wanted to make it clear that falling away was not possible he could have used several words such as, and, since, because.

So while the words "of His house" and "partakers of Christ" do refer to salvation that little word "if" gets in the way and make them finally being included in "His house" etc, conditioned on continued faith.

What in our time demonstrates that we are in fact saved? The only thing that we can look at, our lives. Are we living for ourselves or for Jesus. Of course that is a subjective evaluation at best.

Look at 2Pe 2:20 "If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first."

These words have been used to refer to both believers and the false teachers. If we say the believers then we see that they have become entangled and over come by the world again, thus fallen away.
If we say the false teachers then we are caught in the same web.
Either way a person wants to read these words, someone that at one time believed has turned away from and rejected Christ.

In either case we see that the person had knowledge of "the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". The critical word here is knowledge G1922. This is not just a passing knowledge but as intense focused knowledge.

knowledge G1922 It is more intens. than gnṓsis (G1108), knowledge, because it expresses a more thorough participation in the acquiring of knowledge on the part of the learner. In the NT, it often refers to knowledge which very powerfully influences the form of religious life, a knowledge laying claim to personal involvement. Complete WordStudy Dictionary

 

[Silverhair]

.
We do not understand their obedience in the same way.
Your understanding of those instructions as warnings cannot prevent those yet lost from a no return denial.

By what means do you believe any of those perceived warnings are to be obeyed to prevent denial of the faith?

Do you believe 2 Peter 1:4-10?

If someone is warned that they could fall away that means they could fall away or the warning is meaningless. And how does one understand obedience differently. One either obeys God or they do not , one either trust in God or they do not

I did not say they could not turn back to God did I. The bible says that. Heb 6:6

Trust God. What other way is they to avoid falling away?

Do I believe 2Pe 1:4-10? YES. Do you.

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Did you not notice the condition in this verse.

Answer the same question, do you not believe the warning passages?