Genuine Salvation is Forever

[37818]

It says, they “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” That is a distinctly Christian experience!

I feel for Apostle Peter because I have experienced the same gut wrenching agony that he felt when he saw his dear and precious brothers in Christ once again become entangled in the defilements of the world. However, for me there was the additional agony caused by my friends telling me that “Ken” was never saved! They had never prayed with Ken or worshipped Christ with him. They had never rejoiced or lamented with him. They had never laughed or cried with him. They had never shared a meal with him. They never knew anything at all about him, and yet they had the audacity to say that he was never saved—all because their deeply flawed 16th century doctrine says that he could not have been saved because he fell away from his exemplary Christian life style of twenty-four years. This judgmental behavior on the part of my “friends” was totally unjustified, inexcusable, and cruel. Moreover, Ken and millions like him are proof that the 16th century doctrine should be flushed down the toilet.

You could be right.
I do not understand your argument.
So, for me, it cannot change my view. Even if it should.

It doesn't say they put their trust in Christ.

 

[37818]

2 Corinthians 11:3, . . . But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. . . .

 

[Silverhair]

All I know is Scripture states that those who are "partakers of Christ" and "of His house" are those who hold fast to the end.

I can accept those passages without having to question whether they are right or how they fit into my theology.

To your second point - you are wrong and I have already told you why you are wrong about what I believe. But I will again.

Those who have a faith that will endure are saved in the present. They are "of His house", "partakers of Christ" because they hold on to their faith to the end.

I NEVER said that we are only saved in the future. I said that salvation in the present is an expression of that future salvation.

All I know is that those that have trusted in Christ Jesus are in Christ thus in His house and partakers of Him. Many will hold fast to the end but some will fall away from their faith. That 's way we have the warning passages to guard your faith etc.

I apologize for the misunderstanding Jon, I took your word to mean they had to endure to the end in order to be a partaker of Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The unsaved do fall away from salvation. 2 Peter 2:1, . . . denying the Lord that bought them, . . .

Understand, I am of the view point, that those who "fall away" were never saved. Romans 8:9.

So there is no room for a ‘carnal Christian’ in your belief system?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All I know is that those that have trusted in Christ Jesus are in Christ thus in His house and partakers of Him. Many will hold fast to the end but some will fall away from their faith. That 's way we have the warning passages to guard your faith etc.

I apologize for the misunderstanding Jon, I took your word to mean they had to endure to the end in order to be a partaker of Christ.

In Calvinist speak, that is what’s recognized as’ perseverance’ and John MacArthur would call it, ‘Lordship Salvation’ so are you stating these are not biblical stances? Once again, the Reformed community has built them right into their Doctrines of Grace which they celebrate. With that said, now everyone can be puritanical.

 

[JonC]

All I know is that those that have trusted in Christ Jesus are in Christ thus in His house and partakers of Him. Many will hold fast to the end but some will fall away from their faith. That 's way we have the warning passages to guard your faith etc.

I apologize for the misunderstanding Jon, I took your word to mean they had to endure to the end in order to be a partaker of Christ.

No problem.

I see problems with the OSAS doctrine, in practice, because it can and does hive assurance where there should be none. That said I believe it true in what it presents, just incomplete.

The Calvinistic position is based on Calvin's Atonement and is more problematic than OSAS (they are not the same).

My friends and family who are free will Baptists hold a view similar to yours. I disagree with that position but in the end we are at the same place (those lacking faith are lost).

 

[SavedByGrace]

I see problems with the OSAS doctrine, in practice, because it can and does hive assurance where there should be none.

this makes no sense at all!

 

[JonC]

this makes no sense at all!

People look back and say "I believed" at a point in time and never "test" their faith but instead live a sinful lifestyle with a false assurance.

Our assurance is not that we once believed.

 

[SavedByGrace]

People look back and say "I believed" at a point in time and never "test" their faith but instead live a sinful lifestyle with a false assurance.

Our assurance is not that we once believed.

do you believe that born again Christians can backslide?

 

[JonC]

do you believe that born again Christians can backslide?

I do. And when they backslide they have no assurance of their faith, only a conviction (if they are saved...God disciplines His own).

 

[SavedByGrace]

I do. And when they backslide they have no assurance of their faith, only a conviction (if they are saved...God disciplines His own).

but they are still very much BORN AGAIN!

 

[JonC]

but they are still very much BORN AGAIN!

They are IF they have a faith that holds firm.

Hebrews 12:7–8 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You could be right.
I do not understand your argument.
So, for me, it cannot change my view. Even if it should.

Yes that’s Lordship Salvation you are explaining. Then there is the Hypercalvinists LOL. Makes you think that the Reformers are badly in need of a new reformation. ‘Reformation 2’

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.

Typical Lordship Salvation BS! So that only begs the question, “what’s the difference between Sonship and Discipleship”?

 

[SavedByGrace]

They are IF they have a faith that holds firm.

Hebrews 12:7–8 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

This sounds like our salvation is human and we keep ourselves

 

[JonC]

This sounds like our salvation is human and we keep ourselves

Not at all. That is my point.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not at all. That is my point.

Really? What have I missed

 

[Craigbythesea]

Typical Lordship Salvation BS! So that only begs the question, “what’s the difference between Sonship and Discipleship”?

Do you call everything that you dislike “Lordship Salvation” even when it has absolutely nothing to do with Lordship Salvation? Your posts are typical of people who have no knowledge with which to argue against a position that they dislike, so they mindlessly attack the position using that which is of no relevance. My post includes numerous objective facts that are supported by massive databases of word usage among first and second century Christians. Your post includes no data, no facts, nothing that is true, and nothing of relevance.

 

[JonC]

Really? What have I missed

It is an actual belief and repentance that leads to a rebirth, not a cognitive acceptance that temporarily affects our behavior until we reverse that belief.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Do you call everything that you dislike “Lordship Salvation” even when it has absolutely nothing to do with Lordship Salvation? Your posts are typical of people who have no knowledge with which to argue against a position that they dislike, so they mindlessly attack the position using that which is of no relevance. My post includes numerous objective facts that are supported by massive databases of word usage among first and second century Christians. Your post includes no data, no facts, nothing that is true, and nothing of relevance.

who are you addressing here?