Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Brightfame52 you can keep saying that until the cows come home but it will not change the truth of the bible. One must believe before they are justified. Faith first then justification by the grace of God.
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Justification by Faith !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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@Brightfame52 you can keep saying that until the cows come home but it will not change the truth of the bible. One must believe before they are justified. Faith first then justification by the grace of God.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I will keep saying it, because you dont believe the promise, you impose a condition, thats law keeping.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I believe the promise that God would justify those that believe in Him. By grace through faith is what the bible says.
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Calvinists have it backwards. They think one is saved before they even believe. The fact their view is not biblical does not bother them as they trust in what some man tells them to believe rather than trust what the Holy Spirit says.
Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.
The error of Calvinism is in trusting man rather than God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The promise is to save those that have the faith of Abraham.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Faith is not a work and you would know this if you actually trusted what the Holy Spirit said through Paul.
Gal 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
You believe only what you want to believe. You're an unbeliever of a significant portion of God's word.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Bold claim there KY. What portions of scripture am I supposed to not believe?
Here's one of many:
Paul:
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9
You routinely slander the 'Calvinists' for the very things you do, violence to the scriptures.
But hey, that's the way you get your jollies, right?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
KY why do you continue to take verses out of context? It just shows how desperate you are to support your failed theology.
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
It would only be slander of calvinism if what I pointed out were not true. You continue to deny clear scripture and when this is pointed out you cry foul.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Sure looks like the creature has to make a choice.
Actually it saddens me that I have to keep pointing out the errors of calvinism. I had hoped that seeing the errors pointed out they would actually start to trust scripture rather than what some man has told them scripture means. But alas it is not the case so I have to continue on.
Was NOT out of context. It was spot on.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Only in your mind KY, only in your mind.
Let's hover on this one:
John 1:12-13 Did those in v12 choose of their own free will to be born of NOT of their own will?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh_1:13 who were born
not of blood {through having Christian parents}
nor of the will of the flesh {can not save themselves}
nor of the will of man {no man can save another person}
but of God. {By His grace because of their faith}
Man can not save himself as vs 13 shows but we are saved by God as vs 13 shows based on ones free will faith as vs 12 shows. Does that clear up confusion KY?
No. V 13 shows that those that 'received him' were already 'born of God''. Just as Acts of the Apostles 13:48 shows that those 'ordained to eternal life' beleive.
The heavenly birth comes BEFORE conversion.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Typical misreading of scripture there KY. What vs 13 is telling you is that
not of blood {through having Christian parents}
nor of the will of the flesh {can not save themselves}
nor of the will of man {no man can save another person}
Man can not save himself but God will save those that trust in Him as per vs 12
but of God. {By His grace because of their faith}
KY read Act 13:48 in context and you will not make such obvious errors.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
The meaning of this word {τεταγμένοι G5021} must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: {Act_13:46} the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, {Act_13:48} believed. {In both cases it is the person, Jew or Gentile, that made the choice.} By whom so disposed, is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. We know, that it is GOD who worketh in us the will to believe, and that the preparation of the heart is of Him: but to find in this text pre-ordination to life asserted, is to force both the word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain. It may be worthwhile to protest against all attempts to join ἐπίστευσαν with εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, which usage will not bear. Alford
I know you would like to make this support your view but close context and the bible itself show that man has to freely trust just prior to salvation as the gentiles in vs 48 did.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Faith is not before Justification, but after it, the Justified will be given Faith, but Justification comes first, proven by the fact God declared them whom Christ died for by Christs Resurrection Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
So the Resurrection of Christ is a Divine Testimony from Gods Throne that the ones for whom offences He was delivered, are Justified by the declaration of His Resurrection for them. So to deny this, is to deny the very testimony of His Resurrection from the dead, which is not good.
25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
So the Resurrection of Christ is a Divine Testimony from Gods Throne that the ones for whom offences He was delivered, are Justified by the declaration of His Resurrection for them. So to deny this, is to deny the very testimony of His Resurrection from the dead, which is not good.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
False, you keep making what is promised, Justification by Faith, a condition for man to meet. You make faith a condition, but the Truth be told, "Justification by Faith" is promised to Abraham, the totality of it. Both Justification and Faith are promised, and thats the Gospel Gal 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
False, you keep making what is promised, Justification by Faith, a condition for man to meet. You make faith a condition, but the Truth be told, "Justification by Faith" is promised to Abraham, the totality of it. Both Justification and Faith are promised, and thats the Gospel Gal 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It is no wonder that you shy away from context as it keeps showing your errors in understanding scripture.
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Gal 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
"Justification by Faith" is the promise, those that believe will be justified, but that is the condition. No faith no justification.
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
The condition is right there BF, the one who has faith will be justified.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
It may be a hard pill to swallow but the bible is clear in this BF. The condition of salvation is faith.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Do you deny the witness of Christs Resurrection ? Rom 4:25
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
On and on, you are changing the subject and misrepresenting the biblical position.
If any OT saint was fully justified, then, rather than going to Abraham's bosom to wait to be made perfect, they would have gone directly to heaven. Not what Scripture says.
The phrase "justified by faith" is found at least 4 times in the NASB (Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, and Galatians 3:24).
In Romans 3:28) the Greek word faith has no preceding article or preposition, thus a dative (instrumental of means) so the idea is that people are justified by means of faith apart from the law. The entity taking the action is God, and His action is according to His grace of crediting the person's faith as righteousness. The action is to transfer the person spiritually into Christ, where they are made righteous by the washing of regeneration. No OT saint was made righteous in this manner until after Christ died.
In Romans 5:1 the Greek word translated "faith" is preceded by the preposition "ek," thus the idea is we have been justified based on our faith when credited by God. The entity taking the action is God, and His action is according to His grace of crediting the person's faith as righteousness. The action is to transfer the person spiritually into Christ, where they are made righteous by the washing of regeneration. No OT saint was made righteous in this manner until after Christ died.
In Galatians 2:16, the idea is we have believed so that we may be justified based on Christ's faithfulness of sacrificing His life. No OT Saint was justified in this manner until after Christ died.
In Galatians 3:24, the idea is that the function of the OT Law is to lead us to Christ so that we may be justified based on our credited faith. The entity taking the action is God, and His action is according to His grace of crediting the person's faith as righteousness. The action is to transfer the person spiritually into Christ, where they are made righteous by the washing of regeneration. No OT saint was made righteous in this manner until after Christ died.
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