Other than the Lamb of God

[percho]

Was there a roasted lamb at the last supper?

Was Jesus the passover lamb?

This is said in Luke 22:15,16 and he said unto them, 'With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you before my suffering, for I say to you, that no more may I eat of it till it may be fulfilled in the reign of God.'

Would not, his suffering be the lamb slain? For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

We know others were eating the passover the following evening.

John 18:28

 

[37818]

We know others were eating the passover the following evening.

John 18:28

The priests each of 7 days of feast.
Per Numbers 28:24, After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

 

[JonC]

Was there a roasted lamb at the last supper?

Was Jesus the passover lamb?

This is said in Luke 22:15,16 and he said unto them, 'With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you before my suffering, for I say to you, that no more may I eat of it till it may be fulfilled in the reign of God.'

Would not, his suffering be the lamb slain? For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

We know others were eating the passover the following evening.

John 18:28

There would probably be a lamb or goat.

Leviticus 23:4–8 These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover.
6 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
7 ‘On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.
8 ‘But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.’ ”


The word translated "twilight" literally means "between the two evenings. Nisan 14 would begin the evening before the morning (Jewish days were from sunset to sunset with the "eve" being the time between when the sun starts to set and actual sunset and the technical day starting at sunset).

We'd say "Nisan 14 eve".....think "Christmas eve.

Sunset on Nisan 14 would start Nisan 15.

So Jesus would have eaten the Passover (proper) as the "Last supper".

The Feast of Unleavened Bread would start on sunset at the end of Nisan 14 (that is, Nisan 15). This was a day of holy convocation (like a Sabbath....the only work that could be done was for the meal).

This was followed by the Chol HaMoed (the 16-20 Nisan) and the Festival concluded on 21 Nisan which was another holy convocation.



It gets a bit confusing not only because of the Hewish night-day (and the technical day starting at sunset, which is actually the end of evening), and not only for ideas that get lost in translation, but also for how terms changed.

In Exodus there was a distinction between Pasdover and the Feast. But by the first century (as it is today) both terms are used interchangeable (so the first day of the Feast, or unleavened bread, or pasdover, can refer to the 14th or 15th of Nisan).

We do this with "Chriatmas" as well. Some refer to December 24th as Christmas, others to December 25tg, and often we use "Christmas" to refer to a couple of weeks around the holiday. People living 2 000 years from now may find this odd, but it is normal in our time.


The reason that we can know Jesus ate the pasdover proper (14 Nisan) is that Mark and Luke noth notes that the Pasdover was being killed. The meal is the Seder meal, and the Passover (in the context of killing) refers to the animal slain. This would have been the ceremonal Pasdover at the Temple. Families killed many animals on that day.

And 15 Nisan itself was a day of holy convocation. Those traveling to Jerusalm would have already done so. Jesus would have arrived at the upper room on the evening before the morning of Nisan 14. His arrest had to be the night before the morning of Nisan 15.

All of this is in Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Mark and Luke (the gospels explaining why the arrest was to be before 15 Nisan....that is, before the Feast).



The problem comes in with actually knowing, beyond question, when the 1st Century Jews celebrated.

If the evening of Nisan 14 began after the morning of the same date, then the actual Passover meal was eaten on 15 Nisan.

If the evening of 14 Nisan refers to the evening before the morning then by our standards the date is off.



So what can we know?

Christ ate the meal around sunset prior to the afternoon of the crucifixion.
The Jews could not arrest Jesus or conduct the business of a trial counsel on 15 Nisan.
Jesus' death was on a Preparation Day (a day prior to a Sabbath).
Jesus had risen from the Tomb by Sunday morning (the women found the tomb empty)

 

[percho]

There would probably be a lamb or goat.

Leviticus 23:4–8 These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover.
6 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
7 ‘On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.
8 ‘But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.’ ”


The word translated "twilight" literally means "between the two evenings. Nisan 14 would begin the evening before the morning (Jewish days were from sunset to sunset with the "eve" being the time between when the sun starts to set and actual sunset and the technical day starting at sunset).

We'd say "Nisan 14 eve".....think "Christmas eve.

Sunset on Nisan 14 would start Nisan 15.

So Jesus would have eaten the Passover (proper) as the "Last supper".

The Feast of Unleavened Bread would start on sunset at the end of Nisan 14 (that is, Nisan 15). This was a day of holy convocation (like a Sabbath....the only work that could be done was for the meal).

This was followed by the Chol HaMoed (the 16-20 Nisan) and the Festival concluded on 21 Nisan which was another holy convocation.



It gets a bit confusing not only because of the Hewish night-day (and the technical day starting at sunset, which is actually the end of evening), and not only for ideas that get lost in translation, but also for how terms changed.

In Exodus there was a distinction between Pasdover and the Feast. But by the first century (as it is today) both terms are used interchangeable (so the first day of the Feast, or unleavened bread, or pasdover, can refer to the 14th or 15th of Nisan).

We do this with "Chriatmas" as well. Some refer to December 24th as Christmas, others to December 25tg, and often we use "Christmas" to refer to a couple of weeks around the holiday. People living 2 000 years from now may find this odd, but it is normal in our time.


The reason that we can know Jesus ate the pasdover proper (14 Nisan) is that Mark and Luke noth notes that the Pasdover was being killed. The meal is the Seder meal, and the Passover (in the context of killing) refers to the animal slain. This would have been the ceremonal Pasdover at the Temple. Families killed many animals on that day.

And 15 Nisan itself was a day of holy convocation. Those traveling to Jerusalm would have already done so. Jesus would have arrived at the upper room on the evening before the morning of Nisan 14. His arrest had to be the night before the morning of Nisan 15.

All of this is in Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Mark and Luke (the gospels explaining why the arrest was to be before 15 Nisan....that is, before the Feast).



The problem comes in with actually knowing, beyond question, when the 1st Century Jews celebrated.

If the evening of Nisan 14 began after the morning of the same date, then the actual Passover meal was eaten on 15 Nisan.

If the evening of 14 Nisan refers to the evening before the morning then by our standards the date is off.



So what can we know?

Christ ate the meal around sunset prior to the afternoon of the crucifixion.
The Jews could not arrest Jesus or conduct the business of a trial counsel on 15 Nisan.
Jesus' death was on a Preparation Day (a day prior to a Sabbath).
Jesus had risen from the Tomb by Sunday morning (the women found the tomb empty)

Is it error for me to believe that because Jesus is our passover sacrificed for us, that sacrifice would have taken place at the time of day on the fourteenth of the first month that Israel was commanded to kill the passover.

Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. John 18:28

Were these Jews killing and eating the passover in the wrong manner and or at the wrong time?

 

[JonC]

Is it error for me to believe that because Jesus is our passover sacrificed for us, that sacrifice would have taken place at the time of day on the fourteenth of the first month that Israel was commanded to kill the passover.

Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. John 18:28

Were these Jews killing and eating the passover in the wrong manner and or at the wrong time?

Jesus was traveling with His disciples towards Jerusalem when the passover was killed (before the Supper in the upper room).

The passover was to be observed for 8 days (total).

If that Sabbath fell on 15 Nisan (a day of holy convocation) and one defiled himself then he would not be able to observe the Passover (the meal on that date).

So we can not know as a fact.

But we can know that Jesus observed the passover on the evening that the Passover was sacrificed and that the day following was a Sabbath.


So the question is.....how could Jesus die as the Passover was bring killed and also have been traveling to the upper room when the pasdover was being killed?


My answer is that the Jews not wanting to be defiled refers to the Feast (which Luke says is also called the Passover).


What meal do you believe Jesus would have eaten on the evening the Passover was being sacrificed?

 

[Alan Gross]

What happened on the night of the 14th of Nisan?

"Statistically, it often happens that the 14th of Nisan falls on a Wednesday according to the biblical (or Jewish) calendar.

"This was also the case in the year in which Jesus was crucified,
as the context of all the biblical passages of the NT shows.

"Scientists assume that Jesus died in the years 30 to 34 AD.

"This coincides exactly with astronomical events,
because in the years 30, 31, and 34 A.D.
the 14th of Nisan fell on a Wednesday in each case,
as it did in the years 2020, 2023, 2026, 2027 and 2030."

What did Jesus eat at the Last Supper on the night of Nisan 14?

"Already on the 13th of Nisan (Tuesday),
the disciples gathered to prepare the Lord's Supper
(the "supper in one evening", hence the name; Mt 26:17-19).

"After sunset (i.e., as early as 6 p.m.),
the preparation day, Nisan 14, began,
when the disciples began to eat
(Mt 26:20-29; Mk 14:17-25; Lk 22:14-38; Jn 13:21-17,26).

"But this was still on Wednesday evening
since Wednesday had already begun at 6:00 pm Tuesday.
(see the illustration below).

Was there a roasted lamb at the last supper?

"Scholars now argue whether a Passover lamb was eaten
or whether it was just a normal dinner that took on new meaning
and symbolism as a memorial meal.

"The misunderstandings also result from incorrect translations,
because in some Bibles a Passover "lamb" is mentioned
(e.g. Mt 26:17,19 in the Luther Bible 1984),
but the basic Greek text never speaks of a Passover lamb,
but only generally of a "Passover" or "Passover meal"
without saying what exactly was eaten.

"John mentioned this supper with the following words:

John 13:1; "Now before the Feast of the Passover,
when Jesus knew that His hour had come to depart out of this world...

2; "During supper ...

3; "Jesus, knowing that the Father
had given all things into His Hands,
and that He had come from God and was going back to God,

4; "rose from supper. He laid aside His outer garments,
and taking a towel, tied it around His waist

5; "Then He poured water into a basin
and began to wash the disciples' feet
and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around Him"
(John 13:1-5).

"The feast of Passover was by no means uniformly defined,
so some in the colloquial language already called the 13th Nisan
also belonging to the Passover, because some splinter groups
already began on the 13th Nisan with the slaughter,
others counted from the 14th Nisan,
because on this day the lamb had to be slaughtered.

"But the first Passover feast day (High Sabbath) for all was, of course,
only the 15th of Nisan, because it was the first day of Unleavened Bread,
when no leaven was to be eaten.

"From the 13th of Nisan to the 14th of Nisan,
the Israelites had to remove the leaven but before sunset,
because after sunset the High Sabbath (15th of Nisan) began."

"The real Passover lamb was slaughtered on the 14th of Nisan.

"However, some scholars point out that
because of the immense amount of sheep,
the slaughtering began on the 13th of Nisan
for those living outside Jerusalem
and on the 14th of Nisan for most others.

"This view is also held by PICKL: "Because of the large number of sacrifices
and because of the long journeys of the Disaspora Jews and the Galileans, however, the practice had become established of slaughtering Passover lambs
in some cases as early as the evening of Nisan 13
and bringing the Passover meal forward a day.

"The synoptic account reflects such an early meal on the 13th of Nisan"
(cf. PICKL, Messiaskönig 1939, pp. 250-251.)

But the historian Flavius Josephus does not write
that slaughtering already took place on the 13th of Nisan,
but he reports that it was on this 14th of Nisan,
as it was prescribed in the Torah.

"He mentions an unimaginable 255,600 sacrificial animals
slaughtered on the 14th of Nisan from the 9th hour to the 11th hour
(Jewish War 6, chapter 9, 423-425).

"In terms of the 2 hours of slaughter (9th-11th hour; 3-5 p.m.),
it would mean that 2,130 lambs should have been killed per minute.

"The Bible does not say that the Passover lambs
were slaughtered as early as Nisan 13.

"Neither does it say that Jesus ate a Passover lamb."

Therefore, most Christians assume that the Last Supper
at the beginning of the 14th Nisan (night phase)
must have been a normal meal that became a new memorial meal.

"The evangelist John describes this last night of Jesus in great detail.

"It was the last common evening before the execution of Jesus,
therefore it became the special memory meal.

Was Jesus the passover lamb?

Yes, during the daylight of the 14th of Nisan, at 3:00 pm, Jesus was crucified.

"According to this, Jesus would not have eaten the Passover lamb
because He Himself was "slaughtered"
as the Passover lamb on the 14th of Nisan.

"This would also coincide with various extra-biblical sources
which reports that Jesus did NOT eat the Passover lamb
(e.g. Chronicon Paschale, Hippolytus, etc.).

"Since on Tuesday evening from 6 p.m.
the Passover preparation day (14th Nisan) began,
the designation "Passover meal" is correct,
because it was on the same calendar day
in which in the evening
(more precisely "between the evenings" (see explanation)
the Passover lamb was slaughtered."

"In other words, a Passover meal is a meal that takes place
at the time of Passover, with no specific day or food specified.

"In common speech, this usually refers to the Passover meal
at the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th of Nisan,
at which the Passover lamb was eaten.

"But on any day (or evening) during the one-week Passover feast,
there could be a communal meal at which the family met.

"If this meal took place on an evening, then for the Israelites
it was an evening meal.

"But we Christians,
when we use the word "Last Supper" or "Lord's Supper",
mean a very special meal on a very specific evening,
namely the LAST gathering of the disciples with their Lord
before His execution.

"Since all biblical days begin after sunset,
this was of course after the 13th of Nisan,
that is, after sunset
(from 6 pm a new calendar day began, see definition day)
at the beginning of the 14th of Nisan.

"On the same calendar day, Jesus was crucified at 3 pm."

Would not, his suffering be the lamb slain?

Yes.

"A Passover lamb is a lamb eaten at the time of the Passover feast.

"The Passover began with the separation of the lamb
already on the 10th of Nisan, but this very special and unique lamb
was not allowed to be slaughtered until the 14th of Nisan (at 3pm).

"However, the entire Bible does not say that the Israelites
had to eat a vegetarian diet until the 14th of Nisan.

"So they could have eaten a lamb as early as the 7th, 10th, 12th
or 13th of Nisan, but then it would have been a normal lamb
that was allowed to have defects.

"However, it would in no way be the pure and young lamb
that was already sorted out on the 10th of Nisan
and had to be kept for 4 days and was only allowed to be slaughtered
for the Passover feast on the 14th of Nisan from 3 pm.

"Only the blood of this specific lamb brought salvation.

"All this was done to commemorate the Exodus from Egypt,
in which the lamb slaughtered at 3 p.m. on the 14th of Nisan
(see "between the evenings") was quickly eaten,
the blood of which saved the people of Israel.

"On the night of the 15th of Nisan, the liberation of the people
and the exodus from Egypt took place,
so this day is the first High Sabbath of the year
and not the day before, which is only a preparation day."

We know others were eating the passover the following evening.

John 18:28

That's right.

 

[Alan Gross]

This is said in Luke 22:15,16 and he said unto them,
'With desire I did desire to eat this passover with you
before my suffering, for I say to you,
that no more may I eat of it
till it may be fulfilled in the reign of God.'

CHECK OUT THIS SITE called, "HEBREW for CHRISTIANS",
It contains an ENORMOUS AMOUNT of Wonderful Information.

New Thread:

VERY NICE "HEBREW for CHRISTIANS" Site
& WORTHY is THE LAMB. pdf

THERE IS SO MUCH MATERIAL IN JUST THIS .pdf, ALONE,
THAT IT IS TRULY AMAZING:

WORTHY is THE LAMB. pdf.
Spring Holidays/ Pesach/ Passover Seder, etc.

(I can't copy and paste it...OR YOU'D BE SWAMPED!!, no doubt...)

...

 

[percho]

What happened on the night of the 14th of Nisan?

"Statistically, it often happens that the 14th of Nisan falls on a Wednesday according to the biblical (or Jewish) calendar.

"This was also the case in the year in which Jesus was crucified,
as the context of all the biblical passages of the NT shows.

"Scientists assume that Jesus died in the years 30 to 34 AD.

"This coincides exactly with astronomical events,
because in the years 30, 31, and 34 A.D.
the 14th of Nisan fell on a Wednesday in each case,
as it did in the years 2020, 2023, 2026, 2027 and 2030."

What did Jesus eat at the Last Supper on the night of Nisan 14?

"Already on the 13th of Nisan (Tuesday),
the disciples gathered to prepare the Lord's Supper
(the "supper in one evening", hence the name; Mt 26:17-19).

"After sunset (i.e., as early as 6 p.m.),
the preparation day, Nisan 14, began,
when the disciples began to eat
(Mt 26:20-29; Mk 14:17-25; Lk 22:14-38; Jn 13:21-17,26).

"But this was still on Wednesday evening
since Wednesday had already begun at 6:00 pm Tuesday.
(see the illustration below).

"Scholars now argue whether a Passover lamb was eaten
or whether it was just a normal dinner that took on new meaning
and symbolism as a memorial meal.

"The misunderstandings also result from incorrect translations,
because in some Bibles a Passover "lamb" is mentioned
(e.g. Mt 26:17,19 in the Luther Bible 1984),
but the basic Greek text never speaks of a Passover lamb,
but only generally of a "Passover" or "Passover meal"
without saying what exactly was eaten.

"John mentioned this supper with the following words:

John 13:1; "Now before the Feast of the Passover,
when Jesus knew that His hour had come to depart out of this world...

2; "During supper ...

3; "Jesus, knowing that the Father
had given all things into His Hands,
and that He had come from God and was going back to God,

4; "rose from supper. He laid aside His outer garments,
and taking a towel, tied it around His waist

5; "Then He poured water into a basin
and began to wash the disciples' feet
and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around Him"
(John 13:1-5).

"The feast of Passover was by no means uniformly defined,
so some in the colloquial language already called the 13th Nisan
also belonging to the Passover, because some splinter groups
already began on the 13th Nisan with the slaughter,
others counted from the 14th Nisan,
because on this day the lamb had to be slaughtered.

"But the first Passover feast day (High Sabbath) for all was, of course,
only the 15th of Nisan, because it was the first day of Unleavened Bread,
when no leaven was to be eaten.

"From the 13th of Nisan to the 14th of Nisan,
the Israelites had to remove the leaven but before sunset,
because after sunset the High Sabbath (15th of Nisan) began."

"The real Passover lamb was slaughtered on the 14th of Nisan.

"However, some scholars point out that
because of the immense amount of sheep,
the slaughtering began on the 13th of Nisan
for those living outside Jerusalem
and on the 14th of Nisan for most others.

"This view is also held by PICKL: "Because of the large number of sacrifices
and because of the long journeys of the Disaspora Jews and the Galileans, however, the practice had become established of slaughtering Passover lambs
in some cases as early as the evening of Nisan 13
and bringing the Passover meal forward a day.

"The synoptic account reflects such an early meal on the 13th of Nisan"
(cf. PICKL, Messiaskönig 1939, pp. 250-251.)

But the historian Flavius Josephus does not write
that slaughtering already took place on the 13th of Nisan,
but he reports that it was on this 14th of Nisan,
as it was prescribed in the Torah.

"He mentions an unimaginable 255,600 sacrificial animals
slaughtered on the 14th of Nisan from the 9th hour to the 11th hour
(Jewish War 6, chapter 9, 423-425).

"In terms of the 2 hours of slaughter (9th-11th hour; 3-5 p.m.),
it would mean that 2,130 lambs should have been killed per minute.

"The Bible does not say that the Passover lambs
were slaughtered as early as Nisan 13.

"Neither does it say that Jesus ate a Passover lamb."

Therefore, most Christians assume that the Last Supper
at the beginning of the 14th Nisan (night phase)
must have been a normal meal that became a new memorial meal.

"The evangelist John describes this last night of Jesus in great detail.

"It was the last common evening before the execution of Jesus,
therefore it became the special memory meal.



Yes, during the daylight of the 14th of Nisan, at 3:00 pm, Jesus was crucified.

"According to this, Jesus would not have eaten the Passover lamb
because He Himself was "slaughtered"
as the Passover lamb on the 14th of Nisan.

"This would also coincide with various extra-biblical sources
which reports that Jesus did NOT eat the Passover lamb
(e.g. Chronicon Paschale, Hippolytus, etc.).

"Since on Tuesday evening from 6 p.m.
the Passover preparation day (14th Nisan) began,
the designation "Passover meal" is correct,
because it was on the same calendar day
in which in the evening
(more precisely "between the evenings" (see explanation)
the Passover lamb was slaughtered."

"In other words, a Passover meal is a meal that takes place
at the time of Passover, with no specific day or food specified.

"In common speech, this usually refers to the Passover meal
at the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th of Nisan,
at which the Passover lamb was eaten.

"But on any day (or evening) during the one-week Passover feast,
there could be a communal meal at which the family met.

"If this meal took place on an evening, then for the Israelites
it was an evening meal.

"But we Christians,
when we use the word "Last Supper" or "Lord's Supper",
mean a very special meal on a very specific evening,
namely the LAST gathering of the disciples with their Lord
before His execution.

"Since all biblical days begin after sunset,
this was of course after the 13th of Nisan,
that is, after sunset
(from 6 pm a new calendar day began, see definition day)
at the beginning of the 14th of Nisan.

"On the same calendar day, Jesus was crucified at 3 pm."



Yes.

"A Passover lamb is a lamb eaten at the time of the Passover feast.

"The Passover began with the separation of the lamb
already on the 10th of Nisan, but this very special and unique lamb
was not allowed to be slaughtered until the 14th of Nisan (at 3pm).

"However, the entire Bible does not say that the Israelites
had to eat a vegetarian diet until the 14th of Nisan.

"So they could have eaten a lamb as early as the 7th, 10th, 12th
or 13th of Nisan, but then it would have been a normal lamb
that was allowed to have defects.

"However, it would in no way be the pure and young lamb
that was already sorted out on the 10th of Nisan
and had to be kept for 4 days and was only allowed to be slaughtered
for the Passover feast on the 14th of Nisan from 3 pm.

"Only the blood of this specific lamb brought salvation.

"All this was done to commemorate the Exodus from Egypt,
in which the lamb slaughtered at 3 p.m. on the 14th of Nisan
(see "between the evenings") was quickly eaten,
the blood of which saved the people of Israel.

"On the night of the 15th of Nisan, the liberation of the people
and the exodus from Egypt took place,
so this day is the first High Sabbath of the year
and not the day before, which is only a preparation day."



That's right.

Very good post.


I personally do not believe the 13th has anything to do with anything but the rest I agree with. I do not believe they had a meat at the table. Jesus desired to eat that passover with them yet knew that he would be the lamb to be killed therefore it would not be until the kingdom of God that he would eat it with them.

I believe the year before the year he died he ate the passover lamb that was killed on the afternoon of the fourteenth probably at supper on the fifteenth.

 

[Van]

I enjoyed this thread's title, Other than the Lamb of God.

The idea seems to discuss anything and everything other than the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Item, lets discuss our speculation as to what was eaten at the Last Supper.

Item, lets discuss whether Jesus was the Lamb of God before He was sacrificed. But lets not discuss what the Lamb of God accomplished by His sacrifice.

Item, we should speculate as to whether Jesus is our "Passover." We can see blood spread on door jams, and the Death Angel passing over, and venture that when we were sprinkled with His blood, He became our "Passover" as no longer did the deadly consequence of sin threaten us.

 

[37818]

Sunset on Nisan 14 would start Nisan 15.

A sunset starts each day date. So Nisan 14 begins with it's sunset and it's day follows. The following sunset is the next date and that day follows.