Featured Limited Atonement insanity.

Unbiblical reasoning? Really?

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

K. Now I see YOUR reasoning. You're saying that the 'free gift of justification of life' that came to all men due to Christ's "one act of righteousness" is the resurrection from the dead. That's not bad. And it does indeed reverse the effect of Adam's transgression. First I've read that one.

How does the 'free gift of justification of life' become synonymous with 'damnation'?

 

No because the bible says He died for ungodly sinners such as you and I. Rom 5:6, 8

 

But I always answer your questions directly before insulting you. You haven't responded to anything I have said as anyone can see who reads this. So either refute what I have said or answer in some way or I will assume you can't. Is there anything I have said that you can articulate a disagreement with?

 

Lol, Dave, mostly you've hem hawed about what you think you remember about what some commentators have written. How should I respond to that? Except for this one by Hodge, which I would have eventually commented on, and which is totally in line with MY thinking:

Do YOU hold to an age of accountability? If so, how do you back it up with scripture?

 

Of course it should. You see an example of this going on right now in the last several posts. A person looks at Romans 5:18 and desperately wants it to say a specific thing about the extent of the atonement. His view is so preconceived that he can't even benefit when he finds out that a hugely prominent theologian agrees with him on the fate of dying infants. He is so blinded by what he just knows the passage in question must be about. This is an example of willing ignorance. Lack of knowledge is perfectly alright and is part of being human. Lack of knowledge due to not even having the curiosity to hear what wiser people think is a real problem, but common in our age of the common man and high self esteem.

 

I think I answered all your questions in post 20. I don't think Romans 5:18 is relevant to the Calvinist vs Arminian view of the extent of the atonement. What else can I say. You are illustrating my point here exactly in that I tried to show you using the fact that Hodge spends much ink on Romans 5 yet you for some reason demand that I must give you an 1 sentence answer that is totally conjured out of my own mind. I don't understand why you would want my opinion when you are obviously not familiar with the commentary of anyone of real substance.

 

I'm glad you asked that in this way. As far as I know there are no scriptures that address the age of accountability in the sense that we are talking about here. Yet I believe in such a thing and here's why:
1. Scripture does have a few things to say in regards to responsible ages for various things in the old and new testament. It doesn't directly answer the question but it's a place to begin inquiry.
2. Plenty of scripture gives us an idea about the nature of Jesus towards little children and we can gain a lot of useful insight from that.
3. (This is the one you will hate) Prominent theologians and scholars have looked at this and explored this and many have come to the conclusion that due to the universal effects of Christs death, there is a sense in which the too young, the mentally deficient, and all such need not be in danger of Hell. I would not have the self esteem to think this true if I alone had come up with this.

This is exactly why we need theologians and Biblical scholars. If nothing

 

I use him because he is a good example of a high Calvinist who wrote the definitive work on the extent of the atonement. Yet clearly taught the legitimate "offer" of the gospel along with the promise of God that anyone can come to him if he will. I think he has the stature to answer some of the more extreme claims of the modern internet Calvinists - and he is someone who they might listen to. Plus, his practical teaching on living the Christian life is very good. And you can't read everything so if you spend the time to really read Owen, you will by necessity neglect some others.

I have read Wesley and would be very content if that was all I had. I don't think his theology is as carefully articulated as the Reformers but I would gladly tell people if they hate Calvinism then stick with Wesley and they will be fine. Wright, I may get around to if I live long enough.

That's right. I would even go so far as to say that 90% of our theological beliefs are really an attempt to identify with and improve our stature within our chosen camp. We're people. What can I say.

 

Oops, he has entered the ring

 

Every human group has a level of deviancy beyond which they cannot tolerate. (This makes perfect sense because a certain level of similarity is necessary for there to be any meaning to the groups existence. Exceed that and it is logically impossible for the group to function as the group was originally purposed to do.) I don't know much about Wright but I would venture to say that claiming that everyone had a wrong understanding of the Pauline epistles until he came along would definitely generate that level of deviancy in Reformed circles.

 

You know you need me to stir things up a bit.

 

Simplify….

Genesis 18:25. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

Rom 5:18 The all here is limited to the many in Vs 19 and its the elect, who are Justified by Christs Death alone.

 

How do you justify that conclusion from the text? You don't think you could be forcing this? Paul switched from 'the many' in v 15 to 'all men' in v 18, for no reason?

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam`s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
19 For as through the one man`s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. Ro 5