SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Look Jon there is not much point in responding to you because it is clear that you don't really understand the English language!
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What the sin nature is not.
- Thread starter 37818
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Look Jon there is not much point in responding to you because it is clear that you don't really understand the English language!
37818
Well-Known Member
John 1:14, "was made," "became" is not being denied.
I do not believe that the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is correct.
I believe that Jesus is God and He died on a cross for our sins.
Your question is flawed. I do not believe that Jesus experienced spiritual death (God is Spirit), but I do believe that God experienced physical death (the death of a physical body).
Likewise, I believe that we experience a physical death, but we are also more than our physical bodies.
The reason I was using terms like "hypostatic union" is that this (not Scripture) was @SavedByGrace 's objection to orthodox Christianity.
When we speak of "heresy" we are talking about how a teaching lines up with the orthodox faith.
"Became" IS being denied.
I said that in Jesus the Divine nature and human nature are united, with mixture, inseparable, whereby Jesus us 100% God, 100% man. This is called the "hypostatic union".
Note: for those who think "hypostatic union" top big a word, "hypostatic" simply means pertaining to the trinity. We are talking about the union of God and man in Christ.
The point is that this is one union (one inseparable union of two natures comprising Jesus' nature).
SavedbyGrace said that is unbiblical, that instead human nature was added to Jesus (two natures, not united, seperate.....one being held as an addition).
You agreed.
That is the definition of "heresy" (straying from the orthodox faith).
That's fine, because orthodoxy is not the criteria. Scripture is our criteria.
BUT you two keep posting passages not relevant to my posts to defend calling the hypostatic union "unbiblical".
It doesn't work that way. I have provided passages supporting the hypostatic union (especially Phillipians 2:2-12).
Do you have a passage that speaks of Jesus possessing two independent natures????
37818
Well-Known Member
Just provide the Biblical reference.
We know our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God is both the LORD God and man.
37818
Well-Known Member
Here are a few:
Phillipians 2:6 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped
Collosians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Hebrews 2:4 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
John 14:4 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
Matthew 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
Phillipians 2:5-12 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Romans 8:1...There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit s
Jesus is God/man.
Now....you are the one challenging orthodox Christianity.
What passages do you have to show that Jesus is not God/man (100% God, 100% man) but instead 50%God and 50% man (1 nature 100% God and a seperate nature 100% man)?
That is the big issue here.
Where orthodox Christianity holds Christ to be 100%God, 100% man you ate telling us Jesus had two natures - one God and one man (50%/50%).
Initially I responded to @SavedByTheLord because I though he had simply misspoke with the "and", thinking he and I actually agreed. But then he dug and called Christian doctrine "heresy" and "unbiblical".
IF Jesus had two seperate natures instead of a union of two natures, and each nature was 100% of its component, THEN Jesus was 50% God (one nature 100% God)and 50% man (the other nature 100% man).
You two are advocating heresy. But show your passages.
You must have a strange definition for "death." You think God can and did die. How would you define death?
And BTW, hypostatic union/penal substitution theory, why not just discuss the scriptures using Bible terminology. You Calvinist like people wear me out with this stuff.
I'm good with the common definition of death. The vital organs cease to function. The physical body dies.
God can and did experience physical death (the death of a physical body).
I am not sure exactly why you deny that Jesus is God, or believe that Jesus ceased being God. I am not sure why you are posting this on a Baotist board, and on the Baptist section of the board.
The doctrine of the Trinity is an essential doctrine.
The reason I use theological terms when posting on a theological topic is that it is appropriate to assume those participating have at least a basic understanding of the topic being discussed and are not ignorant of basic words/terms.
We are talking about basic words that have been around for centuries. The issue is Christians have become ignorant of even the simplest theological concepts that at one time were common knowledge.
I do not know why you being up Calvinism. I take it you are a Calvinist? Has nothing to do with me or my views.
Jesus Christ died to redeem sinners from the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is not physical death. Paul, speaking of his own physical death said the following;
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Those who are saved are present with the Lord though absent from their bodies. This tell us we have an ever living soul that is the spiritual part of man that can be separated from his body. Reason and logic alone would tell us that physical death alone is not the wages of sin. The "second death" is the wages of sin and that is eternal damnation separated from the omnipresent God in a place where he is not. A dark place without water and without rest. Jesus warns about it in his sermons and the Revelation tells when men will go there. It is called the lake of fire. If you want to know what it is like to go there just study the suffering he went through on the cross. Jesus suffered as a man, a body and a soul, apart from the trinity for three hours on the cross. when God forsook him for our sakes. It reminds me of a chorus we sing at church.
What wondrous love is this, O my soul, O my soul
What wondrous love is this, O my soul
What wondrous love is this that caused the Lord of bliss
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul, for my soul
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing, I will sing
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing
To God and to the Lamb, who is the great I Am
While millions join the theme, I will sing, I will sing
While millions join the theme, I will sing
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on, I'll sing on
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing and joyful be
And through eternity, I'll sing on, I'll sing on
And through eternity, I'll sing on
Here
This seems to be your MO. If we do not believe your heresy, we are the heretics. The triune God did not die for my sins, or yours. Jesus Christ died for my sins alone. He died spiritually when he was separated from the Godhead and then he died physically when his soul departed from his body. He uttered the saying redemption was finished at this point and gave up the ghost, the soul from his body. This typology has already been established in the Genesis record with the first Adam when sin separated Adam (who had been innocent until then) from God both spiritually and physically in the garden. These men are contrasting types. Adam brought sin into the world by his deed and Jesus Christ put sin away by his deed.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The idea that the wages of sin is not physical death was the only Christian position for centuries. This was the understanding of the Apostolic and Early Church.
The argument against their understanding is that they were primitive and not privy to theological development.
I find that argument insufficient (I actually expect those who learned from Jesus and the Apostles to be more inclined towards correct doctrine...but I'm a minority).
I do fond it interesting that today many point to Genesis through the lens of the Catholic Church to discover something foreign to the OT Hebrew faith, the Jewish religion, and the first centuries of Church history.
Anyway, the wages of sin is physical death. The wrath to come is the "second death", but this is Christ- centered.
This is one reason you cannot find even one passage speaking of a person dying spiritually in the Bible.
I will respond to the underlined statement by saying you surely cannot be serious.
There were only two men in the entire history of the church who were capable of dying spiritually. Both the men were called the son of God. The first one was the first man, a creation of God. He was created a trinity. And BTW, all things created by God has a trinitarian identity. All the angelic hosts and all redeemed humanity are called "sons of God" because they are special creations, except Jesus Christ who is the Son of God by a woman. He was not created, he was generated.
Mt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
All saved people becomes a "new" creation.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
He is not revamped, renovated, he is made new. In fact he is re "newed." Take a look;
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
The renewing of the Holy Ghost is what makes him a new creature. How so you say. By making him a trinity, soul, body, and the indwelling Holy Ghost. This is the same Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ dismissed just as the world turned dark at 12 noon the day he was crucified.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The wonderful thing about this gospel is that new creatures in Christ cannot be condemned by sinning because the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed unto us who believe and we can never be condemned by anything.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That is as secure as one can get.
So here are the only two men capable of dying spiritually and this will provide you with the verse you say is not in the scriptures.
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Lu 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
These are the only two men who had the Spirit indwelling them as a member of their persons in all the OT. Both these men died spiritually, meaning the Spirit departed from them, and the Spirit departed both men for the same reason. Because of sin. One had sin in him and one had sin on him. This is spiritual death for both men. Spiritual death is defined by the departure of God the Spirit from the body while physical death is the departure of the soul from the body. Both were heads of families. Adam was the head of the unregenerate family and all his offspring are like him, body and soul.. Jesus Christ is the head of the family of God, a family of people born again into his family by the Spirit and who are all like Jesus, in the image of God, trinitarian. This is so because the Spirit indwells their bodies. We are predestined to have a body like his glorious body, the body of Jesus, an immortal body that can never sin and never die. This will be accomplished when this family is complete.
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Now, here is your verse;
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Anyone knows that Adam lived 930 years after the day he ate of the tree. So, what kind of death did Adam die in that day? He died spiritually. He had been in fellowship with God in the garden until then. After that there had to be an innocent lamb to cover his nakedness. It is not strange when man is reconciled to God and in fellowship with him when he receives the Spirit of God, who also makes him a son of God by his presence in his mortal body.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Jesus Christ had to die the death of a man and endure the wrath of God for us or we could never be children of God. It was the only way. to wash away our sins.
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 And can it be that I should gain
An int'rest in the Savior's blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain?
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! how can it be
That Thou, my God, should die for me?
Refrain:
Amazing love! how can it be
That Thou, my God, should die for me!
2 'Tis mystery all! Th'Immortal dies!
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine!
'Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more. [Refrain]
3 He left His Father's throne above,
So free, so infinite His grace;
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam's helpless race;
'Tis mercy all, immense and free;
For, O my God, it found out me. [Refrain]
4 Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quick'ning ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth and followed Thee. [Refrain]
5 No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th'eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own. [Refrain]
Amen.
here
This is to correct my previous comment in post #73. The word should not have been "church" but world. It should have been as below:
There were only two men in the entire history of the world who were capable of dying spiritually. Both the men were called the son of God. The first one was the first man, a creation of God. He was created a trinity. And BTW, all things created by God has a trinitarian identity. All the angelic hosts and all redeemed humanity are called "sons of God" because they are special creations, except Jesus Christ who is the Son of God by a woman. He was not created, he was generated.
I am serious, and you proved my point.
You explained why two had to have died spiritually, posted the lyrics to a song, and provided passages.
But none of the passages you provided state that anybody died physically. Instead they state (the actual text of Scrioture)
what I have been saying.
My point is we have to know where God's Word ends and our understanding begins.
I proved your point that physical death is the payment for sin? I posted passages that shows Adam was separated from the presence of God for 930 years after he transgressed the law of God (don't eat the fruit of that one tree) and before he died physically, and when he did die physically he did not die as the son of God. Adam was on his way to hell because that is the wage of sin, one sin. See James 2:9 here. No. Adam was dead spiritually for those 930 years and the fact he died physically proves it. Unlike us now who have been born again and have received the Spirit of God, who is the life of God, and who are sealed by the Spirit in the righteousness of Jesus Christ where personal sins cannot condemn us, Adam was not.
I never said that death was the "payment fir sin".
I said that sin produces death. The wage of sin is death.
Where are you getting this "payment for sin" stuff?
I know that "the flesh" is spiritually dead. I never claimed otherwise.
I was speaking specifically of dying spiritually.
This would require one being "in Christ" (spiritually alive) dying spiritually due to sin.
I believe in eternal salvation (OSAS).
The Bible tells us all of this.
1. Adam was created flesh.
2. Men are, by nature, flesh.
3. Jesus is a life giving Spirit.
4. Being made alive (spiritually) is to be made alive in Christ.
I would like to answer some of these questions from the Scriptures.
Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
I am going to quote a parable of Jesus Christ in a chapter that lays out the conditions and circumstances of this entire age from the cross to the judgement, Matt 13, is a series of parables called the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. You are not going to understand the meaning and thrust of this parable but the enlightened mind can understand it and how it fits in this age during which God is dealing with the entire world in grace and waiting patiently and with long suffering and mercy waiting for them to come to him, he having opened the way through the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Here it is;
Mt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Jesus has already said to the apostles that the field is the world. He has said that a man (Jesus Christ) he hides treasure (in the field) and he goes and sells all that he has (see note 1 below) and buyeth that field.
Note 1:
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Lu 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Ex 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
De 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
We are the people who of all the world are most guilty of unbelief because we can read the prophecy of Israel in the scriptures that were not to be confirmed until the end times and we have the privilege of being able to look back as history has unfolded ans see that God did hide his nation in the other nations of the world. Then he gave salvation through Christ to all those nations so he could save some of his covenant people, thus keeping his promises in his covenants to them until he brings them back as a nation. We can read secular history and know that the land of Israel was emptied of the Jews in 70 AD and they did not return as a nation and a people until 1948 AD. God buried them in the nations and hid them there just like the parable said. Even now they are not saved as a nation but they soon will be, though they will be few in number after the judgement of God that purges them of the dross. This will be at the great tribulation that Matthew says will be a baptism of fire that will purify them.
Most of you guys who post here do not have a clue it seems about any of these things but these parables gives us different but a complete picture of this age we are living in now. They are designed to inform and instruct the saved and to hide these truths from the unsaved. It is just how God does things.
The Bible says Adam was created in the image of God. That does not mean he looked like God when he looked at his image in a mirror. It means he was as God is, a trinity. Soul, body, and Spirit.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (free from sin)
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
I don't know what it takes to convince you fellows that to be in the image of God requires the Spirit of God. He is what makes the image because he is the third and added part we receive from God as his gift to us when we believe.
Take a look at this:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels (that would be our mortal bodies), that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Think on these things and trust God to teach us. The condition for sound doctrine is believing the words and honoring context.
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It would take passages that actually state that we had a debt of sin that needed to be repayed.
I agree with the passages you have provided, but not the ideas you add to those passages.
For example, I agree that the wages of sin is death. I agree that sin, once conceived, brings forth death.
I agree that Christ nailed the certificate of debt (the Law with all of its requirements) on the tree.
But to answer your question, it woukd take actual Scrioture (not your theories or ideas about Scripture) to convenience me. The reason is that I believe Scrioture sufficient.