CJP69
Active Member
Saying it doesn't make it so.
I DARE you or anyone on this site to make a post that's longer than a single sentence and that contains an actual argument.
It will not happen.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Jesus Christ The God-Man
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
I DARE you or anyone on this site to make a post that's longer than a single sentence and that contains an actual argument.
It will not happen.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
your "dare" is DESTROYED by the OP, which has MANY sentences!!!
you will NEVER be able to refute what I say in the OP
I DARE you!
CJP69
Active Member
Blatantly hypocritical foolishness. Incredible!
Why would I want to refute it?
Welcome to my ignore list.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Your INSTANCE that GOD DIED, is blatant HERESY, which the TWO NATURES in the ONE PERSON Jesus Christ, as in the OP DESTROYS!!!
Jesus refers to Himself as God a couple of times and alludes to His divinity several instances in Scripture.
But most often He referred to Himself as a "human being".
It is difficult for us to reconcile the two, to accept that the "Word became flesh", was "made like us in every way" and still remained God.
We have trouble seeing how Jesus could be God and yet not be omniscient, omnipresent, and act not on His own accord.
The fact that God experienced a physical death isn't as difficult because we know even as men experience a physical death their soul does not cease to exist. And when God died on the Cross (physically) He committed His Spirit to the Father (He did not die spiritually and "God is Spirit).
But we do have difficulty viewing God as learning, growing, changing, and being human.
Perhaps this is one reason God became human. We can't understand God except in human terms. His fullest revelation of Himself to us is Jesus Himself.
Scripture presents Jesus, primarily, as a human being. We know Jesus is God because He told us so and the Father confirmed His testimony.
We do not know He is God because of His actions, but His actions testified to His words.
But most often He referred to Himself as a "human being".
It is difficult for us to reconcile the two, to accept that the "Word became flesh", was "made like us in every way" and still remained God.
We have trouble seeing how Jesus could be God and yet not be omniscient, omnipresent, and act not on His own accord.
The fact that God experienced a physical death isn't as difficult because we know even as men experience a physical death their soul does not cease to exist. And when God died on the Cross (physically) He committed His Spirit to the Father (He did not die spiritually and "God is Spirit).
But we do have difficulty viewing God as learning, growing, changing, and being human.
Perhaps this is one reason God became human. We can't understand God except in human terms. His fullest revelation of Himself to us is Jesus Himself.
Scripture presents Jesus, primarily, as a human being. We know Jesus is God because He told us so and the Father confirmed His testimony.
We do not know He is God because of His actions, but His actions testified to His words.
CJP69
Active Member
Could it be because the doctrines of omniscient and omnipresent aren't biblical and originate from pagan Greek philosophy?
I have no problem with seeing God as a human, whatsoever!
Then again, I, unlike Augustine, Luther and Calvin, have no problem with a God who isn't immutable.
That's because the term "death" does not mean "to cease to exist".
Jesus spent three days in the grave and had not yet ascended to the Father as of the morning of His resurrection and so lets not read more into Luke 23:46 than what it says.
"We" may refer to thee but not me!
I have no difficulty whatsoever viewing God in any of these ways whatsoever. It rings i my ears as the gospel itself, or at least critical to it.
We can understand God just fine! God created us for that purpose! Understanding, reasoning with, loving and in all ways having a relationship with God is THE reason we were created.
37818
Well-Known Member
Malachi 3:6, . . . For I am the LORD, I change not; . . .
Hosea 11:9, . . . for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: . . ."
1 Timothy 2:5, . . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . .
CJP69
Active Member
This verse and two or three others like it that Calvinists like to quote are all talking about God's character. God's righteousness, justice, kindness, wisdom and love do not change but this verse and others like it do not teach the Aristotelian idea of immutability that Calvinists (and other Augustinians) teach, which says that God not only does not by cannot change in any way whatsoever.
The verses that you go on to quote in your post help to prove that God does and has changed in incredibly profound ways beyond any question or doubt. Indeed, it is the gospel itself!
When Hosea was written and for an eternity prior to it, this statement was perfectly true but then some 750 or so years later God, the Creator of all that exists besides Himself, became a Man and dwelt among us!
That sounds like a change to me!
Amen! This is true precisely and ONLY because Jesus Christ is God become Man. He is divinity and humanity in One and thus is the only One worthy to be both the Lamb of God, sacrificed for the sins of the entire human race, and the Mediator between humanity and God the Father who has committed all judgement to His only begotten Son!
37818
Well-Known Member
You are making excuses and accusations. And all I did was quote a few scriptures. We are agreed on 1 Timothy 2:5 and context.
CJP69
Active Member
I am making neither. I simply responded to the verses that you quoted without further comment or context. If you happen to agree with me then that's terrific!
I will not apologize to those who refuse to post their actual thoughts because to do so would require something other than copy/pasting something. If you don't wish to be misunderstood, assuming that I actually misunderstood anything, then don't be lazy and spend the time required to articulate the point you're trying to make!
37818
Well-Known Member
Our understandings of Malachi 3:6 and Hosea 11:9 may differ. I am also not a Calvinist. As far as I can tell we have no disagreement with 1 Timothy 2:5. There are at least three different understandings of the three Persons in the Biblical Trinity. Maybe more. There is only the one God who is the LORD God. The three distinct Persons are the same God.
CJP69
Active Member
You said nothing here that I disagree with nor anything that contradicts a syllable of what I've said in regards to the passages you quoted. If you think that any of those verses say something other than what I've stated then it can only be your doctrine that informs that disagreement.
If you've ever happened to notice it, the bible presupposes several key doctrinal issues related to God. It does not make any attempt to make an argument that supports or proves that God exists, for example. God's existence is presupposed throughout the entire scripture and is not treated as a question that needs answering. The same goes for God's character, although to a lesser degree. The fact that God is just and righteous is presupposed in almost the entire scripture but God is not afraid to defend His character and present arguments in that direction from time to time (Ezekiel 18 - the whole chapter being the most prominent example of this) but aside from a small number of exceptions, God does not try to prove that He is righteous and just but it is simply assumed that this is the case and things are stated and discussed within that paradigm. Malachi 3:6 and only two or three other single sentence verses of scripture are places where God makes an exception to this general rule and states explicitly that He is not capricious and untrustworthy like mere men often are, but rather He is immutable in His character and unwavering in His righteousness. Any other understanding has to be read into the passage and most often this is done in direct contradiction to such critical biblical facts as the incarnation of Christ along with His death and resurrection.
37818
Well-Known Member
I have no issues against Malachi 3:6.or Hosea 11:9. Or for that matter Ezekiel 18. We might understand somethings differently. It is simply my understanding the Son of God per John 1:18 who works on behalf of His Father, per John 1;2-3.. What Jesus explained in John 5:19 and John 14:6-9 is how it has always been. His incarnation was the change, He as the Creator became part of His own creation.
CJP69
Active Member
What you need to be clear on is the fact that your last sentence there is sufficient to obliterate the doctrine of immutability as normally taught in almost all of Christianity and most especially in Calvinist or "Reformed" churches and most every Catholic church as well. Augustine's doctrine, which Augustine himself states proudly that he learned from Aristotle and Plato, has very effectively permeated throughout the church and it IS NOT biblical.
CJP69
Active Member
IF anyone here doubts that when most theologians say that God is immutable that what they mean is that God cannot change IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, I offer the following quote from Augustine which illustrates the concept better than any other quote I've ever seen....
There are those here on this forum who have recently made a very similar accusation in regards to God's foreknowledge and, whether he knows it or not, he believes this for the same reason. Virtually the entirety of all aspects of Calvinism's (Augustinianism's) doctrinal distinctives are based on the single premise that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. Indeed, they are not merely based on that premise but they are logically dependent upon it. If God has ever changed in anyway at all then the whole of what makes Calvinism what it is falls into dust.
"But how did Thou speak? Was it in that manner in which the voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son"? Matthew 17:5 For that voice was uttered and passed away, began and ended. The syllables sounded and passed by, the second after the first, the third after the second, and thence in order, until the last after the rest, and silence after the last. Hence it is clear and plain that the motion of a creature expressed it, itself temporal, obeying Your Eternal will. And these your words formed at the time, the outer ear conveyed to the intelligent mind, whose inner ear lay attentive to Your eternal word. But it compared these words sounding in time with Your eternal word in silence,...." Augustine's Confession Book XI, chapter 6
The reading of that nonsense tends to glaze people's eyes over. The point he's making is that God did not say, "This is my beloved Son" but a creature said it in His stead because God exists in an at-temporal static state of silence. Augustine believed that little gem of heresy because He believed that God is UTTERLY immutable. He believed that for God to speak would imply a change and any change of any kind would break Him and disqualify Him as being God.
There are those here on this forum who have recently made a very similar accusation in regards to God's foreknowledge and, whether he knows it or not, he believes this for the same reason. Virtually the entirety of all aspects of Calvinism's (Augustinianism's) doctrinal distinctives are based on the single premise that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. Indeed, they are not merely based on that premise but they are logically dependent upon it. If God has ever changed in anyway at all then the whole of what makes Calvinism what it is falls into dust.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
"Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." Revelation 1:17-18
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
"Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." Revelation 1:17-18
Your definition of die out of this world means separation. As God mention in Genesis 2:17 “thou shalt surely die” means separated, spiritually, and die in bible is separation of body, soul and spirit. Your claim that God died as one God he has that Power to separate the persons that functions all together like Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He died in a term of separation not end of someone lives, is that it?