Interpreting Scripture

[Van]

1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say "all things" or "some things" so the context, 1 Corinthians 3:1 must be used to determine the scope intended in this verse. Since Paul spoke to natural men (unregenerate "men of flesh") using spiritual milk as he did new Christians, obviously natural men can receive the spiritual milk things of the Spirit of God.

. The words of Scripture are to be taken in their plain historical sense. That is, they must be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed. This only assumes that the sacred writers were honest, and meant to be understood.

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. God cannot teach in one place anything which is inconsistent with what He teaches in another. Hence Scripture must explain Scripture. If a passage admits of different interpretations, that only can be the true one which agrees with what the Bible teaches elsewhere on the same subject. [Concepts taken from Charges Hodge]​

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals were chosen through "faith in the truth" a conditional election.
James 2:5 says individuals were chosen that were "rich in faith" and "heirs" to the kingdom promised to those who "love God."

No need to seek another sense, the plain sense makes sense. Whoever believes into Him shall not perish.

1 John 2:2 says Christ became the means of reconciliation for "the whole humanity."
1 Timothy 2:6 says Christ died as a ransom for all.

No need to seek another sense, the plain sense makes sense. Christ died for those to be saved and those never to be saved.

2 Chronicles 17:3-4 says people sought God and followed His commandments.
Acts 13:7 says a person sought to hear the word of God.

No need to seek another sense, the plain sense makes sense. The fallen sometimes seek God and to follow His commands.

 

[Deacon]

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense;
therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning
unless the facts of the immediate context,
studied in the light of related passages
and axiomatic and fundamental truths,
indicate clearly otherwise.”
Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),​

 

[Van]

Part of Dr. David L. Cooper's rules for understanding God's word:

THE BASIS FOR A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S WORD
In order to fully understand the Word of God (the Bible), there are certain requirements that you must yield to. The Bible is a spiritual book, and it must be spiritually discerned. "Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually examined'' (I Corinthians 2:14).​

This seems to say, in my humble opinion, that the lost, natural rather than spiritual people, cannot understand the gospel message presented in scripture. I believe this claim is totally wrong. Scripture can lead the lost to Christ. Scripture can be used to teach and rebuke the lost. Since scripture does not contradict scripture, the above claim is bogus.

1) Galatians 3:24 says the Law has become our escort into Christ.
2) 2 Timothy 2:15 says scripture conveys wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

. The words of Scripture are to be taken in their plain historical sense. That is, they must be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed. This only assumes that the sacred writers were honest, and meant to be understood.

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. God cannot teach in one place anything which is inconsistent with what He teaches in another. Hence Scripture must explain Scripture. If a passage admits of different interpretations, that only can be the true one which agrees with what the Bible teaches elsewhere on the same subject. [Concepts taken from Charges Hodge]

You almost got it right Van:

Hodge's three simple rules:

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.

3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge

What do you think is the most important the point of disagreement? | Page 2 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Van]

You almost got it right Van:
What do you think is the most important the point of disagreement? | Page 2 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

Yet another taint so post, off topic and totally wrong!!

Part of Dr. David L. Cooper's rules for understanding God's word:

THE BASIS FOR A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S WORD
In order to fully understand the Word of God (the Bible), there are certain requirements that you must yield to. The Bible is a spiritual book, and it must be spiritually discerned. "Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually examined'' (I Corinthians 2:14).

This seems to say, in my humble opinion, that the lost, natural rather than spiritual people, cannot understand the gospel message presented in scripture. I believe this claim is totally wrong. Scripture can lead the lost to Christ. Scripture can be used to teach and rebuke the lost. Since scripture does not contradict scripture, the above claim is bogus.

1) Galatians 3:24 says the Law has become our escort into Christ.
2) 2 Timothy 2:15 says scripture conveys wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ.​

 

[Silverhair]

You almost got it right Van:


What do you think is the most important the point of disagreement? | Page 2 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject.

...it is maintained that in all things necessary to salvation they are sufficiently plain to be understood even by the unlearned.

...He {God} has made it obligatory upon every man to search the Scriptures for himself, and determine on his own discretion what they require him to believe and to do.

They {man} are everywhere assumed to be competent to understand what is written, and are everywhere required to believe and obey what thus came from the inspired messengers of Christ.

It need hardly be remarked that this right of private judgment is the great safeguard of civil and religious liberty.

Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment
by Charles Hodge

 

[kyredneck]

Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment
by Charles Hodge

So you've taken up with the Augustinian, Charles Hodge?

Miracles never cease.

 

[Silverhair]

So you've taken up with the Augustinian, Charles Hodge?

Miracles never cease.

No just pointing out that even Hodge can sometimes get it right.

But I do note that as per the usual of Calvinists you do not actually read what is posted before you make your comments.

Go back and read the post again KY. There are points in there that you have missed which will help clear up a number of your errors.

 

[kyredneck]

No just pointing out that even Hodge can sometimes get it right.

I'm just pointing out you've no business citing Hodge to support your Pelagianism. All those quotes of him you posted pertains to those in:

1 Corinthians 2:12
But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

....and not to those void of the Spirit:

1` Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Read him further, I guarantee you'll drop him like a hot potato.
Genuine Historical Calvinism: Charles Hodge: "sufficiently for all, efficaciously only for the elect. "

 

[Silverhair]

I'm just pointing out you've no business citing Hodge to support your Pelagianism. All those quotes of him you posted pertains to those in:

1 Corinthians 2:12
But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

....and not to those void of the Spirit:

1` Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Read him further, I guarantee you'll drop him like a hot potato.
Genuine Historical Calvinism: Charles Hodge: "sufficiently for all, efficaciously only for the elect. "

You call me a Pelagian because I do not follow your Calvinist philosophy. Fill your boots, I follow the bible so by extension that would mean you do not.

There is an old saying, even a blind dog will find a bone occasionally, so even Hodge can find the biblical truth on occasion.

You are mistaken if you think I follow Hodge, I just used what he said to show you the error of your post.

You need to start trust what the bible actually says and stop reading into the text your philosophy.

We receive the Spirit of God when we believe not so we will believe.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You have made the erroneous assumption that "does not receive" means "cannot receive". But the scriptures show that unregenerate men can be "devout" and "spiritual" if they so choose to be. An excellent example is Cornelius.

Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment,
Act 10:2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

But it has been determined before time just what you would think and believe, why God would want you to ignore His word is a mystery but there it is.

By the way, before you start extolling the virtues of Augustinian philosophy you would be well advised to spend some time getting to know what the basis of his views were. I guarantee you'll drop his views like a hot potato.

 

[Deacon]

I've been taking a FREE college level course in Biblical Interpretation offered by Grace School of Theology.
It is offered again in October for those that want to sign up.
The course may be taken as a "for credit" course (requiring reading and homework) or you may audit the course (no homework or credit).
Advanced Master's level credit for the course is also available.

You can simply sit back and listen to the weekly lectures but taking the time to complete the extensive reading and homework will increase the value of the course significantly.

Principles of Biblical Interpretation (Hermeneutics) [Link]

DATE: October 19 – Dec. 14, 2024 (8 weeks)
TIME: 9am – 12pm US Central Time

Required reading: Both of these books are excellent and should be on the bookshelf of any serious Bible student.

• Living by the Book: The Art and Science of Reading the Bible [Amazon Link] by Howard and William Hendricks
• Introduction to Biblical Interpretation, 3rd ed. [Amazon Link] by William Klein, Craig Bloomberg and Robert Hubbard Jr.

Rob

 

[Dave G]

Since Paul spoke to natural men (unregenerate "men of flesh") using spiritual milk as he did new Christians, obviously natural men can receive the spiritual milk things of the Spirit of God.

Perhaps you missed what was stated to the Corinthians...
Paul did not speak to natural men as the subject of the epistles, Van, he spoke to God's children who already had the Spirit in them and were already born again:

" But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ).

According to God's word as seen in the above, natural men do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can they know them...for they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned.; they are not discerned by the flesh ( those who do not have the mind of Christ ).
God's children have received His Spirit, so that they may know the things which are freely given to them from God...

The things that Paul spoke in his epistles.

Those who do not have the Spirit of God cannot know the things that are given to His people.
They will read and / or hear the words, but not "hear" and understand them ( see John 8:43-47 ).

Please read it again, sir.

 

[Silverhair]

Perhaps you missed what was stated to the Corinthians...
Paul did not speak to natural men as the subject of the epistles, Van, he spoke to God's children who already had the Spirit in them and were already born again:

" But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ).

According to God's word as seen in the above, natural men do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can they know them...for they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned.; they are not discerned by the flesh ( those who do not have the mind of Christ ).
God's children have received His Spirit, so that they may know the things which are freely given to them from God...

The things that Paul spoke in his epistles.

Those who do not have the Spirit of God cannot know the things that are given to His people.
They will read and / or hear the words, but not "hear" and understand them ( see John 8:43-47 ).

Please read it again, sir.

The natural man in vs 14 is an unsaved man. He does not care for the things of God as he is consumed with the world. But to take this to mean that the natural man can not respond to the gospel message is to misunderstand the text and the overall concept of biblical salvation.

Those that are not saved can respond to the gospel message and turn in faith to Christ and be saved. (Rom 1:16)
God’s righteousness is not gained by works (as Paul made plain in Rom 10:4-8). Instead, we gain it by confessing and believing in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
They can hear and believe and be saved by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, Rom 10:8-10)

As you said and I say to you. Please read it again, sir.

 

[Dave G]

The natural man in vs 14 is an unsaved man. He does not care for the things of God as he is consumed with the world.

I agree, as that is what the Bible says.

But to take this to mean that the natural man can not respond to the gospel message is to misunderstand the text and the overall concept of biblical salvation.

As I encouraged Van to do, please read the passage again.
To me it clearly states:

v9 = Eye has not seen, nor ear has heard, nor has it entered into men's hearts the things that God has prepared for those who love Him.
v10 = God has revealed these things to men and women by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit that searches out all things, the deep things that are of God.
v11 = The question is asked: What man knows the things of man, but the spirit of man that is within him? It is even so ( the same ) regarding the Spirit of God.
v12 = We ( Christians, believers ) have received the Spirit which is of ( from ) God...not the spirit of the world. Why? So that we, as believers, might know the things that are freely given to us "of" ( from ) God.
v13 = Which things also we ( Paul and Sosthenes, see 1 Corinthians 1:1 ) speak...not in words that man's wisdom teaches, but in words that the Holy Ghost teaches. These words compare spiritual things with spiritual things, not worldly things.
v14 = But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are foolishness to him. Neither can the natural man know them, for they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned.
v15 = But he that is spiritual ( in the Spirit, born again, having the Spirit indwelling him or her ) judges all things, but is judged of ( by or from ) no man...because saved people have already been judged in Christ for those sins, and they are forgiven.
v16 = The question is asked: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he or she may instruct Him?" But believers have the mind of Christ.

Do you not see these things when you read the passage I listed?
If not, then that is where our disagreement stems from.

 

[Dave G]

Respectfully, it seems our disagreement does not stem from me having been taught a systematic theology that is different than yours...
Because for the first 28 years of my life as a believer, I was taught the very same things it seems you have been.

It stems from how we both read and understand the words of God for ourselves, Silverhair.

The Scripture says that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.
It also tells us why.
Because they ( the things of the Spirit of God ) are foolishness to the natural man; Neither can he know them, which precludes the possibility of it happening;
Does it not?

Based on this passage alone, I clearly see that whoever the "natural man" is, that person is completely unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God.
It also tells me the things that I listed, some of which I bring in from other things the Lord has to say about this subject:
Such as John 14:17 and 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.

As for whether or not the "natural man" can and will respond to "a" gospel, I have no doubt that they can.
For example, there are at least 3 "gospels" that I know of that are currently being taught in places where those who profess Christ gather together each and every week.
But given the truths delivered to us in places like John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, I see that natural men will never respond to the actual words of God and believe what they alone say in their entirety.

The Gospel that is developed by every word of God.


Back to the OP:
On the subject of interpreting ( understanding ) Scripture and the things of God freely given to His children properly, no one can do so successfully unless they have the Spirit of God in them...which is what Paul told the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 2.


I'm sorry if you don't agree, but there it is.
May God bless you.

 

[Silverhair]

Respectfully, it seems our disagreement does not stem from me having been taught a systematic theology that is different than yours...
Because for the first 28 years of my life as a believer, I was taught the very same things it seems you have been.

It stems from how we both read and understand the words of God for ourselves, Silverhair.

The Scripture says that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.
It also tells us why.
Because they ( the things of the Spirit of God ) are foolishness to the natural man; Neither can he know them, which precludes the possibility of it happening; Does it not?

Based on this passage alone, I clearly see that whoever the "natural man" is, that person is completely unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God.
It also tells me the things that I listed, some of which I bring in from other things the Lord has to say about this subject:
Such as John 14:17 and 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.

As for whether or not the "natural man" can and will respond to "a" gospel, I have no doubt that they can.
For example, there are at least 3 "gospels" that I know of that are being taught in places where those who profess Christ gather together each and every week.
But given the truths delivered to us in places like John 8:43-47, 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, I see that natural men will never respond to the actual words of God and believe what they alone say in their entirety.

The Gospel that is developed by every word of God.


Back to the OP:
On the subject of interpreting ( understanding ) Scripture and the things of God freely given to His children properly, no one can do so successfully unless they have the Spirit of God in them...which is what Paul told the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 2.


I'm sorry if you don't agree, but there it is.
May God bless you.

I will respond to your two post here. Yes I have read the bible and where you see the natural man can not I see the bible tell me that the natural man can and is expected to do so. That is why we are told he can hear and respond in faith unto salvation. The is why Christ came and died for His creation.

@Dave G when you base your theology on isolated verses it can and often times does lead to wrong understanding of the message of the bible. That is an error I have seen made on a number of boards and in person.

As for the OP, as Van had pointed out the natural man can make real choices. Note what it says in 1 co 2:14 the natural man does not accept them because they are foolish to him, but we know that even those foolish things can be accepted because we see that in the rest of scripture. If we what by the logic you are imposing on this text and applied it to Eph 1:13 then everyone that head the gospel would be saved because they would all believe unto salvation.

Please reread the text but remember what the rest of scripture teaches also.

 

[Van]

"Wonderful things in the Bible I see, most of them put there by you and by me."

This snippet is from "Introduction to Biblical Interpretation." Not too shabby. (Hat tip to Deacon)

1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say "all things" or "some things" so the context, including Corinthians 3:1, must be used to determine the scope intended in this verse. Since Paul spoke to new Christians using spiritual milk just as he did natural men (unregenerate "men of flesh" obviously natural men can also receive the spiritual milk things of the Spirit of God.

To suppress this obvious truth reveals an interpretation driven by presupposition, putting something into scripture rather than deriving something from scripture.

 

[Van]

Perhaps you missed what was stated to the Corinthians...
Paul did not speak to natural men as the subject of the epistles, Van, he spoke to God's children who already had the Spirit in them and were already born again: SNIP

They will read and / or hear the words, but not "hear" and understand them ( see John 8:43-47 ).

Please read it again, sir.

1 Corinthians 2:14 does not say "all things" or "some things" so the context, including Corinthians 3:1, must be used to determine the scope intended in this verse. Since Paul spoke to new Christians using spiritual milk just as he did natural men (unregenerate "men of flesh" obviously natural men can also receive the spiritual milk things of the Spirit of God.

To suppress this obvious truth reveals an interpretation driven by presupposition, putting something into scripture rather than deriving something from scripture.

What does scripture mean when it says those who are "of God" can hear what Jesus says, but those who are not "of God" cannot? (John 8:43-47)

The Greek construction is "ek theos" so just how is "ek" being used? Here the idea is if a person depends on God, thus open to God's truth, they can hear, but those who depend upon something other than God, such as demonic influences, cannot hear God. Same idea as those who comprise those fields "white for harvest" who are open to God's message.

 

[Van]

"Wonderful things in the Bible I see, most of them put there by you and by me."

Several times in our English translations, you will find where the Greek word meaning "all" (pas) is translated as "all things." A better translation (or an improved way to interpret these translation choices) is to read the phrase as "all these things." This would drive up into the context to see if we can derive from the context just what the author had in view, i.e. all what things?

We see false teachers using this poor translation choice to claim the idea is all imaginable things, which runs away from a contextual interpretation.

 

[Van]

Here is yet another example where "all" is expanded by non-contextual interpretation to refer to all imaginable things.

John 16:30 (NASB)
“Now we know that You know all things, and that You have no need for anyone to question You; this is why we believe that You came forth from God.”​

Does this verse support "Omniscience" with "Omniscience" being defined as total knowledge of everything? No, of course not. The context is Jesus first spoke in parable, then spoke plainly. The Disciples knew that Jesus knew that He was talking about because they believed Jesus came from God. See John 16:33 where Jesus refers to the same information as "these things." The Greek word refers to the immediate contextual subject, rather than something not in view.