Featured Can Predestination and Free Will Coexist?

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ez 28

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isa 14

 

To answer the OP, they can but not in the same church... Because Predestination to me means one thing and free-will another... And man had free-will once and look what it cost him and free will was given to another... Brother Glen

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

How can one who actually knows God [John 17:3] stop knowing God? Romans 8:16.

1 John 5:10, . . . he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; . . . .
Matthew 7:23, . . . will I profess unto them, I never knew you: . . .

1 John 4:8, . . . knoweth not God; . . .

2 Thessalonians 1:8, . . . vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . .

 

Perhaps I am missing something here. 1st+ what is your understanding of predestination and do you have scripture that helps explain it?

 

I'm going to say that it was man's natural sin-cursed will that chose to sin.

See the second comment below.

As far as what 'a mystery' is in the Bible,
it is 'a formally hidden Reality'
that is now, in The New Testament, being Revealed.

Colossians 25b, 26, 27;
(25b); "...the Dispensation of God (showing Soverignty)
which is given to me for you, to fulfil the Word of God;

(26); "Even the Mystery which hath been hid from Ages
and from Generations,
but now is Made Manifest to His saints:"

(27); "To whom God would Make Known
what is the Riches of the Glory

of this Mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the Hope of Glory:"
...

This is stating with the idea of man's responsibility, first:

"Man is responsible for his actions,
notwithstanding the fact
that God has Decreed all that comes to pass,
for at least Three Reasons:

1. God's Decree Concerning Sin
is Not Causative but Permissive,
Directive, Preventive, and Determinative.

"God Decreed that sin should come in the World,
for reasons that are fully known only to Him,
but He Decreed that The Entrance of sin into the World
should come by man's own Free Choice.

(Alan: There is your "Free Will/ Free Choice".)

God does not compel man to sin, but He allows it.

Man, and not God, is the Efficient Cause of sin;
and for that reason man is Responsible.

"...No objections can be brought against the statement that:

"God Decreed that sin should come into the world"
that cannot be brought against God's actual Permission of sin,
unless the objector takes the position
that God was powerless to Prevent the Entrance of sin.

"This would be a denial of God's Omnipotence and Sovereignty,
and would render the objector unworthy of consideration here.

"God's Omnipotence and Sovereignty teaches us
that whatever God Permits He Permits because He Wills to do so.

"And since God is Immutable, His Will has always been the same.

"What He Wills at any time He has Willed from All Eternity.
Therefore, His Will equals His Purpose
and His Purpose equals His Decree."

2. The Law of God and Not His Decree
Fixes Man's Duty and Responsibility.

"The Law of God is man's guide and standard.

"This is God's Revealed Will. God's Decree is His Secret Will.

"Man has nothing to do with this except to know
and acknowledge the facts concerning it.

"The secret things belong unto Jehovah, our God;
but things that are Revealed belong unto us
and to our children forever,
that we may do all the Words of this Law" (Deut. 29:29).

3. The Motive Back of Man's Sinning Makes Him Responsible.

"Why does man sin?"

"Is a man's sinning ever done because he wants to do the Will of God?

"Nope, never so.

"Why did men crucify Christ?

"Was it because they believed
that God had sent Him to die as a sin-bearer?

"No.

"It was because they hated Him.

"They crucified Him through wicked motives.

"It is thus that man always sins.

"Sin proceeds from man's love of darkness
John 3:19; "And this is the condemnation,
that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil."

From: T.P. Simmons' Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.

 

John 17:20-25 just happens to have something powerful to say
about another 'mystery' in the Bible that is Revealed,
as well as a wonderful point that I have found to answer:

First another mystery that was Revealed:

John 17:20-23, 25, 26; "Neither pray I for these alone,
but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21; "That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, Art in Me,
and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us:
that the World may believe that Thou hast Sent Me.

22; "And the Glory which Thou Gavest Me I have Given them;
that they may be one, even as We are One:

23; "I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one;
and that the World may know that Thou hast Sent Me,
and hast Loved them, as Thou hast Loved Me.

25; "O Righteous Father, the World hath not known Thee:
but I have Known Thee,
and these have known that Thou hast Sent Me.

(these have known that Thou hast Sent Me", NOW,
that the MYSTERY of God having Sent Jesus
is REVEALED to the Disciples, which "the World hath not known").

26; "And I have Declared unto them Thy name, and will Declare It:
that the Love wherewith Thou hast Loved Me
may be in them, and I in them.
...

Then:

We saw in the previous post of mine above, at:
Can Predestination and Free Will Coexist?
that:

1.) God's Degree didn't Cause man to sin,

2.) Men choose sin when they choose to Transgress GOD'S LAW,

and 3.) Natural man hates God and loves sin.

So, now we have: "why man sinned in the first place".

Why? from Adam's standpoint:
Adam wanted to be with his wife, in her new fallen state,
and chose to leave his state of Sinless Perfection, to not be alone.

From a human view, we know Eve certainly probably
told Adam what she'd been told by Satan;
that if he then ate the forbidden fruit he would not die as God had Prophesied,
and that he, also, would become "as God, knowing good and evil,"
even though God had Commanded them not to.

Although, Adam was not deceived and sinned willfully,
Satan had deceived Eve by telling her
that instead of dying as result of eating the forbidden fruit,
she would become "as God, knowing good and evil."

We see that the act of 'sin' originated with Satan,
still as an attempt at self-gratification:

Gen. 3:1-16. Then, there is a close connection that can be seen
between what we know from Isaiah 14 concerning the Devil
and his method of seducing Eve.

Satan was cast out of Heaven because he sinned against God and said,
"I will make myself like the Most High."

Satan deceived Eve by telling her that:
instead of dying as a result of eating the forbidden fruit,
she would become "as God, knowing good and evil."

We see that men choose to Rebel against God.
and, therefore, 'sin' as self-gratification:

"The sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden
sprang from a preference of self and self-gratification
IN REBELLION and OPPOSITION to God and His Will.

"Eve ate of the forbidden fruit
because she thought it would give desired wisdom.

"Adam partook of the fruit because he preferred his wife to God;
and the reason he preferred his wife to God
is that he conceived of his wife
as contributing more than God to his self-gratification."

from:
https://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons
- A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

Then, why? from God's standpoint,
was man Allowed to sin "in the first place"?

"WHY DID GOD PERMIT THE FALL?"

First.) "It was not that God was compelled to Permit it.

"God is a Sovereign and Does everything Freely.

"And it was not because of any lack of power.

"Although God made man mutable, which was necessary,
yet He could have preserved man from sin
without the violation of man's will or any principle.

This is one answer to the above question
"WHY DID GOD PERMIT THE FALL?" that is stated by Theologians:

"It is that God Permitted Adam to Fall into a State of sinfulness
in order to provide the way
for the Glorification of His Son in Redemption."

A.) By God making man mutable,
B.) Adam would Fall into sin, inevitably,
C.) Just as in God's Election of Adam to Salvation was from Eternity Past
God had also PROVIDED A LAMB FROM ETERNITY PAST,
TO ACCOMPLISH ADAM'S SALVATION and those of God's Elect.
=
D.) God's Son would then BE GLORIFIED AS THE SAVIOR in their Redemption.

Secondly.) Another answer to the above questions:
"why man sinned in the first place"
& "WHY DID GOD PERMIT THE FALL?" is my own personal answer
and that is that since God didn't CONFIRM ADAM in his State of Holiness without sin,
in the same way as God had done the Chosen Angels,
God had Created a being that WAS NOT 'ROBOTIC' IN THEIR WORSHIP of Him,

but, who, after being Created mutable and then having sinned
were personally, Gloriously Saved by Jesus Christ The Savior,
and Forever Indebted to Him, to Worship Jesus in Gratitude for Saving their souls
as well as for Being The Lord God of The Universe.

BUT WHAT ELSE???

Don't miss this...!!!

LOOK AT THESE TWO UNDERLINED VERSES CAREFULLY:

John 17:24: "Father, I Will that they also,
Whom Thou hast Given Me, be with Me where I Am;

SEE WHAT THAT SAYS?

GOD HAD TO MAKE The FIRST CREATED BEING (Adam) MUTABLE,
KNOWING HE WOULD EVENTUALLY SIN

AND GOD KNOWING HE WOULD, IN TIME, SAVE SOME,
THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB
AS OF A LAMB SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD,
FOR HIS SON TO BE GLORIFIED AS THE SAVIOR,

AND THEN, WHAT ELSE ?? WHAT DID WE READ THERE???

So that The TRIUNE GODHEAD
COULD HAVE COMPANIONSHIP & FELLOWSHIP
WITH THOSE CREATED HUMAN BEINGS
That THEY HAD CHOSEN TO SAVE
IN HEAVEN WITH THEM THROUGHOUT ETERNITY.

GOD PERMITTED THE FALL
& then "man sinned in the first place"

SO, "that they also,
Whom Thou hast Given Me, be with Me where I Am;

GOD PERMITTED THE FALL
& then "man sinned in the first place"
as the ONLY WAY GOD COULD PRODUCE BEINGS
TO BE THE TRIUNE GODHEAD'S COMPANIONS IN HEAVEN
WHO WERE ETERNALLY THANKFUL FOR BEING SAVED!!!

"that they may behold My Glory,
which Thou hast Given Me:
for Thou Lovedst Me before the Foundation of the World."

 

THE FALL OF THE FIRST MAN, ADAM:

"Man's original holiness was not immutable. Mutability is a necessary characteristic of human nature. Immutability requires infinity of knowledge and power. Infinity is a characteristic of divinity only. Therefore, since God wished to create a man and not a god, he made Adam mutable. This made the fall possible. Let us note, then, with reference to the fall:

1. THE FACT OF THE FALL OF THE FIRST MAN, ADAM:

"We have the account of the fall in Gen. 3. Thus the fall is a revealed fact. It is also a fact that is evident, as we have already pointed out.

2. THE PROBLEM OF THE FALL OF THE FIRST MAN, ADAM:

"When we come to study the fall of man we are at once faced with the problem of how such a being as Adam was could fall.

"Let us note in regard to this problem:

(1) An Erroneous Explanation of The Fall of The First Man, ADAM:

"Sometimes an explanation of the problem of man's fall is attempted by representing his original state as one of mere equilibrium in which it was as easy to choose the wrong as it was to choose the right. In other words, the will was in a state of indifference, and was as likely to act one way as the other. Such a notion as this reduces man's original state to one of mere innocence instead of positive holiness. We have already touched upon this and trust that we have shown that mere innocence does not satisfy the statement that man was created in the image of God.

(2) The Right Explanation of The Fall of The First Man, ADAM:

"The fall of man cannot be accounted for simply on the basis of Adam's freedom of choice. Neither can it be accounted for on the basis of natural desire, nor upon the basis of the fact that our first parents were deceived by the devil.

"These facts are aptly stated by Strong as follows:

"The mere power of choice does not explain the fact of an unholy choice. The fact of natural desire for sensuous and intellectual gratification does not explain how this desire came to be inordinate. Nor does it throw light upon the matter to resolve this fall into a deception of our first parents by Satan. Their yielding to such deception presupposes distrust of God and alienation from Him. Satan's fall, moreover, since it must have been uncaused by temptation from without, is more difficult to explain than Adam's fall" (Systematic Theology, p. 304).

However the author fails to see the difficulty expressed by Strong in saying that "we must acknowledge that we cannot understand how the first unholy emotion could have found lodgement in a mind that was set supremely upon God, nor how temptation could overcome a soul in which there were no unholy propensities to which it could appeal" (ibid, p. 304).

The author believes that in the following facts we have a logical and satisfactory explanation of the fall of man:

A. Adam was mutable. This fact we have already discussed
(@ Can Predestination and Free Will Coexist?).

B. Being mutable, he could remain steadfast in his original state only by the power of God. See chapter on "The Relation of God to the Universe." Nothing remains in its own power unchanged except that which is immutable.

C. God could justly and holily permit Adam to fall if it pleased Him. Since God has permitted sin, none can object to the permission of the fall except those who will criticize God.

D. God, having chosen to permit the fall, withheld His Sustaining Power from Adam and Adam's moral nature became disordered, just as the Whole Universe would fall to pieces if God were to withdraw His Sustaining and Preserving Power for one instant.

3. THE RESULTS of The Fall of The First Man, ADAM:

"(1) The Headship of Adam. When Adam experienced the corruption of his nature, he stood not as a mere individual; but as the Natural Head of the Race.

"The Natural Headship of Adam is clearly taught in the fifth chapter of Romans. His Headship is not presented here as a mere Federal Headship.

"Adam did not merely "sin for us" as would be the case if he were the mere Hederal Head of the Race; we sinned in him (Rom. 5:12)

(2) The Effects of the Fall.

"A. Upon Adam and Eve"

"Adam and Eve suffered the corruption of their nature,
which brought both Natural and Spiritual Death upon them.

"B. Upon the Race"

"The total effect of the Fall upon the Race
is the Corruption of the Nature of the Race,
which brings the Race into a State of Spiritual Death
and makes it subject to physical death.

"The descendents of Adam are held accountable,
not for the overt act of Adam in partaking of the forbidden fruit;
but for the Inward Apostasy of his Nature from God.

"The word "nature" is used here in the sense of inherent character,
disposition, natural instincts, desires, and appetites.

"The Fall Corrupted Human Nature
in the sense of introducing Moral and Religious Disorder.

"Or, to use the words of Strong, we may say that the fall resulted in
"the depraving of all those powers which,
in their united action with reference to moral and religious truth,
we call man's moral and religious nature;

"or, in other words, the blinding of his intellect,
the corruption of his affections, and the enslavement of his will"
(Systematic Theology), p. 307).

= The O.P.

"We are not personally responsible for the overt act of Adam
because his overt act was the act of his own individual will.

"But our nature, being one with his,
did corrupt itself in the Inward Apostasy of Adam's Nature,
(which then BECAME OUR 'NATURE').

"Hence the effect of the Fall upon the Race
does not consist of both personal guilt for the overt act of Adam
and the Corruption of the Nature of the Race.

"We are not responsible for anything that we cannot repent of
when Quickened by the Spirit of God.

"Is any man today convicted of Adam's sin
of partaking of the forbidden fruit? NO.

"But we do feel convicted of,
and we can and do we repent of,
the corruption of our natures,
which manifests itself in rebellion against God
and in personal transgressions. YES.

 

O.K. Good. Thank you.

Again, through the sin of Adam,
all of Humanity IS NOW
IN a Naturally Born State of having the Corruption of our Natures,
manifest itself in our Rebellion against God
and in personal transgressions,

AT ALL TIMES, BEFORE WE ARE SAVED.

Just as we see in Genesis 6:5;
1.) "GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
2.) and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
3.) was only evil
4.) continually,

ALL UNSAVED, LOST SOULS ARE WITHIN MANKIND
are STILL in THAT SAME SPIRITUALLY DEAD CONDITION
WHICH CAN ONLY SIN,

where they are in wickedness BEFORE A HOLY GOD
AND every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
IS only evil continually;

AND CAN NEVER DO ANYTHING IN THE FLESH THAT PLEASES GOD,
LIKE "CHOOSING TO TAKE GOD'S SIDE AGAINST THEMSELVES
AND TRUST JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOUR",
BY 'AN ACT OF THEIR 'FREE' SPIRITUALLY DEAD WILL'(?)

"The flesh profits nothing."

John 6:63; "It is the Spirit that Quickeneth;
the flesh profiteth nothing:
the Words that I speak unto you,
they are Spirit, and they are Life."

Ephesians 2:1,4,5; "And you hath He Quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

4; "But God, Who is Rich in Mercy,
for His Great Love wherewith He Loved us,

5; "Even when we were dead in sins,
hath Quickened us together with Christ,
(by Grace ye are Saved

IT IS "God, Who is Rich in Mercy,
for His Great Love wherewith He Loved us"
WHO QUICKENS AND MAKES ETERNALLY ALIVE
THE OTHERWISE SPIRITUALLY DEAD SINNER.

THE LOST SINNER IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD
AND HAS NO CAPABILITY OF 'QUICKENING THEIR OWN SOUL'
TO BECOME ETERNALLY ALIVE, IN THEIR FLESH.

"All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God".

For a lost soul to try and throw a rock from New York City to London,
THAT ROCK IS GOING TO 'FALL SHORT'
and SO WILL ANY EFFORT of THEIR'S
TO TRY AND ATTEMPT 'TO GO TO HEAVEN'(?) AS GUILTY SINNERS.

Romans 3:10; "As it is written,
There is none Righteous, no, not one:

11; "There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God.

12; "They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13; "Their throat is an open sepulchre;
with their tongues they have used deceit;
the poison of asps is under their lips:

14; "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15; "Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16; "Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17; "And the Way of Peace have they not known:

18; "There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19; "Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

20; "Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

 

Simple answer, one can not fall away from some they have never been.

But concerning this text 1Timothy 1:18-20 it is Timothy that Paul is saying has faith and a good conscience but that some have reject the same.They have rejected the gospel, and thus have been lost.

 

Actually, Adam absolutely could not be Created as an Immutable being,
because the Only Immutable Being would be The Eternal Godhead.

Since Adam could not be Created , as if God could Create
another 'God', Who would have had to have existed Immutably from Eternity,

then God had to Create this being that He Desired to be with Him in Heaven
as mutable, therefore, the eventuality of a Created being having mutability
means that Creature WOULD INEVITABLY FALL AWAY FROM GOD INTO SIN.

THEN WHAT?

Given the Prospect and Plan and Desire of God
to Share His Eternity in Heaven
with any number of human beings
that weren't simply Confirmed in Sinlessness
like the Elect Angels, God having Determined
that this human would be mutable,

HAD TO 'SIMULTANEOUSLY' PROVIDE THAT HUMAN
WHO WOULD FALL IN SIN
WITH AN ABSOLUTELY ASSURED ACCOMPLISHMENT OF REDEMPTION.

The First man, Adam, and all of his sin-nature offspring who God Elected,
were Provided The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of His people.

The Saving Efficiency of The Atonement for those sins was of Saving Value
beginning with Adam and unto all the Old Testament Elect, prior to Calvary,
because Jesus Christ's Work of Eternal Salvation was Decreed and Promised,
AS A LAMB SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

WHY, AGAIN?

John 17:24; "Father, I Will that they also,
whom Thou hast Given Me, be with Me where I Am;

that they may behold My Glory, which Thou hast Given Me:
for Thou Lovedst Me before the Foundation of the World."

 

I don't suppose any of this answers your questions and concerns,
other than many of these Theologians come off with, "ahhh, there are things
we don't begin to have a clue about and these are some of them..."

A View of the Scripture Revelations
Respecting Good and Evil Angels.
BY RICHARD WHATELY, D.D.,
ARCHBISHOP OF DUBLIN.




ship of those Beings which, at the first introduction of Christianity,
most of the World had been accustomed to worship."

Satan's fall, moreover, since it must have been
uncaused by temptation from without, is more
difficult to explain than Adam's fall, below:

(best I could do) from:
Systematic Theology.
A Compendium and Commonplace-Book
Designed For The Use Of Theological Students
By
Augustus Hopkins Strong, D.D., LL.D.
President and Professor of Biblical Theology
in the Rochester Theological Seminary.

Part V. Anthropology, Or The Doctrine Of Man.

Chapter III. Sin, Or Man's State Of Apostasy.

Section IV.—Origin Of Sin In The Personal Act Of Adam.

I. The Scriptural Account of the Temptation and Fall in Genesis 3:1-7.

II. Difficulties connected with the Fall
considered as the personal Act of Adam.

1. How could a holy being fall?

"Here we must acknowledge that we cannot
understand how the first unholy emotion could have
found lodgment in a mind that was set supremely
upon God, nor how temptation could have overcome
a soul in which there were no unholy propensities to
which it could appeal.

"The mere power of choice
does not explain the fact of an unholy choice. The
fact of natural desire for sensuous and intellectual
gratification does not explain how this desire came to
be inordinate. Nor does it throw light upon the
matter, to resolve this fall into a deception of our first
parents by Satan.

"Their yielding to such deception
presupposes distrust of God and alienation from Him.

"But sin is an existing fact. God cannot be its author,
either by creating man's nature so that sin was a
necessary incident of its development, or by
withdrawing a supernatural grace which was
necessary to keep man holy.

"Reason, therefore, has no other recourse than to accept the Scripture
doctrine that sin originated in man's free act of revolt
from God—the act of a will which, though inclined
toward God, was not yet confirmed in virtue and was
still capable of a contrary choice.

"The original possession of such power to the contrary seems to be
the necessary condition of probation and moral
development. Yet the exercise of this power in a
sinful direction can never be explained upon grounds
of reason, since sin is essentially unreason.

It is an act of wicked arbitrariness, the only motive of which is
the desire to depart from God and to render self supreme."

 

One can be proud of any number of things without them being sin but what Satan took pride in is what made his pride a sin.

Pride leads to a fall Isaiah 14:12-14

I will ascend to heaven
I will raise my throne above the stars of God
I will sit on the mount of assembly
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds
I will make myself like the Most High.'

Lucifer [satan] sought to be better than God and was cast down.
Lucifer fell because of sinful actions brought about by his sinful ambitions. Pride was the reason for his fall.

 

When you use the word "decreed" you make God responsible for what happens. God being omniscient would know the free will actions of all but His foreknowledge would not be the cause of those actions.

My personal view is that Lucifer, of his own will, fell before creation as he was able to enter the garden to influence Eve and Adam.

The plan to send Christ Jesus to provide for man's salvation was made within the Godhead prior to Lucifer's fall. If that were not so then we have to say that God did not know something and that would nullify the omniscience of God.

 

Gods predetermined will is the cause of their actions. God determined that lucifer would of his own voluntary will fall before creation and to be successful in causing Adam and Eve to Transgress. All actions of the creatures, though voluntary, were yet governed by the first cause of all things,The Sovereign will of God