How Did OT Saints Get to Heaven?

[Van]

The mistaken doctrine that OT Saints were born from above when they "obtained approval" (Hebrews 11) is shown to be error because they had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died, Hebrews 11:39-40.

 

[kyredneck]

"]We know from Luke 16:19-31 that before Christ had died, believers who had obtained approval through faith were taken at physical death to a place called "Abraham's bosom."

Where is "believers who had obtained approval through faith" in the context of Lu 16? In fact, where is that phraseology to be found anywhere in the scriptures?

 

[kyredneck]

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham`s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lu 16

Was the rich man in torments on account of 'slacking soul winners'? Or was he there on account of the evil that he had done? Romans 2:8-9

 

[Van]

Where is "believers who had obtained approval through faith" in the context of Lu 16? In fact, where is that phraseology to be found anywhere in the scriptures?

Does anyone believe this poster actually desires to learn this biblical teaching? I do not. The question is for the purpose to suggesting the view does not represent biblical teaching.

Luke 16:22 NASB
“Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to [fn]Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried.
________________
Footnote: Lit Abraham's bosom or lap, ancient Jewish terminology for the place of the righteous dead.

Hebrews 11:1-2 NASB95
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.For by it [faith] the men of old [fn]gained approval.
________________
Footnote: Lit obtained a good testimony​

 

[kyredneck]

Does anyone believe this poster actually desires to learn this biblical teaching?

To: Van's audience

My 'desires':

"Where is "believers who had obtained approval through faith" in the context of Lu 16? In fact, where is that phraseology to be found anywhere in the scriptures?"

"Was the rich man in torments on account of 'slacking soul winners'? Or was he there on account of the evil that he had done? Romans 2:8-9"

 

[Van]

To: Van's audience

My 'desires':

"Where is "believers who had obtained approval through faith" in the context of Lu 16? In fact, where is that phraseology to be found anywhere in the scriptures?"

"Was the rich man in torments on account of 'slacking soul winners'? Or was he there on account of the evil that he had done? Romans 2:8-9"

This poster continues to simply post questions to change the subject to his false assertions. His MO is to quote phrases pulled out of context and then assert a falsehood.

 

[Darrell C]

One mistaken view (IMO) is that the Old Testament Saints were "saved" prospectively, God "looked forward" to the crucifixion and declared the OT saints to have the righteousness of God. But the fly in the buttermilk is Hebrews 11:40 where they had to "wait" to be made perfect, and all those in Heaven had been "made perfect."

I would agree, the Old Testament Saints were not saved "Prospectively," but justified. The key to understanding their condition of salvation at the time is understanding the difference between temporal justification and Eternal Justification through the death of Christ. Abraham was declared righteous, but it was not until Christ redeemed His sin that Abraham was "made perfect" in regards to remission of sins (Hebrews 10:10-14).

In this sense, it is proper to say that the Old Testament saints were as saved as you and I. That is, from God's perspective, they met the basis for justification during their lifetimes. Because God was not perfecting (making complete) believers in that day is not that different than the fact He is not glorifying the Saints in our day. But we are just as saved as we will be when we are glorified. That is, from God's perspective.



God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

Question.

Was Abraham in “Abraham’s bosom”?

David said he would dwell in the house of the Lord forever. He was speaking of God’s heavenly Temple

Abraham’s bosom is simply a figure of speech for heaven.

Otherwise, Paul was mistaken when he said to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

peace to you

 

[percho]

I would agree, the Old Testament Saints were not saved "Prospectively," but justified. The key to understanding their condition of salvation at the time is understanding the difference between temporal justification and Eternal Justification through the death of Christ. Abraham was declared righteous, but it was not until Christ redeemed His sin that Abraham was "made perfect" in regards to remission of sins (Hebrews 10:10-14).

In this sense, it is proper to say that the Old Testament saints were as saved as you and I. That is, from God's perspective, they met the basis for justification during their lifetimes. Because God was not perfecting (making complete) believers in that day is not that different than the fact He is not glorifying the Saints in our day. But we are just as saved as we will be when we are glorified. That is, from God's perspective.



God bless.

John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Romans 8:9-11 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His; and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness, and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

V-23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Was it the death of Jesus of Nazareth, the seed [singular] of Abraham that made father Abraham righteous ? justified?

Has Abraham, who died not having received the promises, received the redemption of the body, has his dead body been quickened or is he still expecting?

V24 for in [to] hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for?

Is that, "hope," relative the redemption of the body?

Heb 11:1 And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

1 Thes 4:13 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,

What hope will those dead in Christ receive when, "Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,"? Will those alive in their dying bodies at that time be changed? Into what?

 

[Darrell C]

Question.

Was Abraham in “Abraham’s bosom”?

For my part, my answer to this question would be yes. "Abraham's Bosom" is shown to be the place of the dead for those who do not go into torment as the Rich Man did. We see a separation between the Just and the unjust. The place of the dead of the Old Testament, sheol (called Hades in the New) was the destination for the dead prior to the Cross. Many believe that Abraham's Bosom was decommissioned when Christ died, descended, then rose again, but I think it is still there. This would be, in my view, where babies that die in the womb go. I believe only born-again believers go to be with the Lord at death, and that those who die outside of regeneration who have never had the opportunity to be born-again go to Abraham's Bosom. This would include those born with mental incapacities. And to get controversial, I also think we could include those who live life without opportunity to hear the Gospel yet live lives by which they are temporally justified. Just as it was in Old Testament economies.

David said he would dwell in the house of the Lord forever. He was speaking of God’s heavenly Temple

True, but remember, David was still alive when he said this. The eventual outcome is he dwell in the house of the Lord, but that does not preclude the time he spent on Earth, or the time he spent in Hades:

Scripture makes the case that David went to Hades:

Acts 2

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Abraham’s bosom is simply a figure of speech for heaven.

Some take that view. I do not, because I do not think Scripture verifies it. And I think Scripture verifies that, like all Old Testament Saints, David went into Hades at death to await Eternal Redemption through the Atonement.

Otherwise, Paul was mistaken when he said to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

peace to you

Paul is speaking of conditions in his day, not commenting on general history. 2 Corinthians 5, and this particular statement have a context of Paul's desire to be raptured, rather than die, but regardless, he knew he would go to be with the Lord if he died prior to the Rapture.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Percho, long time no type.

John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Romans 8:9-11 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His; and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness, and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

V-23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Was it the death of Jesus of Nazareth, the seed [singular] of Abraham that made father Abraham righteous ? justified?

Not in the temporal sense. During his lifetime, Abraham was temporally justified because, when God revealed truths to him, he received those truths and believed. Perhaps not perfectly, lol (Hagar ...).

When Christ died, He redeemed the sins of Abraham and at this point Abraham became more than a friend of God, he became a child of God through Reconciliation.


Romans 3:24-26
King James Version

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Romans 4 is given as an example of God justifying men and the reason for that justification. Romans 3 is given to show that Christ's death in our stead makes Him the Justifier, just as He is the Perfecter (Finisher) of our faith. Justification on an eternal basis is the result of the Work of Christ.

Consider:

Luke 18

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The publican was not eternally redeemed or justified based his action (sorrow/repentance), he was temporally justified. His sins were not forgiven based on his actions. Only Christ can redeem Man from his sin.

Another example of past sins being redeemed by Christ:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


QUOTE="percho, post: 2888741, member: 9897"]Has Abraham, who died not having received the promises, received the redemption of the body, has his dead body been quickened or is he still expecting?[/QUOTE]

He is still awaiting glorificatiion. Only Christ is glorified at this time. The Church as a whole will be glorified at the Rapture.

V24 for in [to] hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for?

Is that, "hope," relative the redemption of the body?

The context of this passage is definitely related to glorification. Paul's point in this particular passage is that we have an expectation based on where our faith lies (i.e., being glorified, being with the Lord in Heaven, seeing loved ones that have passed before us). That expectation, that hope—is no longer relevant when the expectation is fulfilled. For example, if I hope my tomato plants produce tomatoes, that hope becomes irrelevant when I'm eating a tomato sandwich made with one of the tomatoes. I have no reason to continue hoping my tomato plants will produce.

Heb 11:1 And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

Good word to use: conviction. Because that is what hope means in Scripture. Not the "Gee, I hope so" kind of hope we have with things we aren't sure about the outcome.

1 Thes 4:13 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,

He did not want them to sorrow as do those who have not received the truth of the afterlife and what comes after.

What hope will those dead in Christ receive when, "Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,"? Will those alive in their dying bodies at that time be changed? Into what?

I hate to say it, but no hope whatsoever. While unbelievers will be saved during the Tribulation, those still unregenerate at Christ Return will face the judgment of Goats (unbelievers) and be physically destroyed. No change will take place except to go from physically alive to physically dead. They will go into torment to await the Great White Throne, at which time they will be resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and be sentenced to eternal separation. Matthew 25:46 states they go into everlasting punishment at that time which has led some to think they go into Hell. It is also a proof-text for amillennialism. But that view conflicts with numerous Scriptures that make clear there will be a physical Kingdom just as Prophecy consistently teaches. They do go into everlasting being sentenced to Hades, because at that point there is no chance for redemption.

God bless.

 

[Van]

I would agree, the Old Testament Saints were not saved "Prospectively," but justified. The key to understanding their condition of salvation at the time is understanding the difference between temporal justification and Eternal Justification through the death of Christ. Abraham was declared righteous, but it was not until Christ redeemed His sin that Abraham was "made perfect" in regards to remission of sins (Hebrews 10:10-14).

In this sense, it is proper to say that the Old Testament saints were as saved as you and I. That is, from God's perspective, they met the basis for justification during their lifetimes. Because God was not perfecting (making complete) believers in that day is not that different than the fact He is not glorifying the Saints in our day. But we are just as saved as we will be when we are glorified. That is, from God's perspective.



God bless.

Yes, when they "obtained approval" they were in God's favor, and if nothing changed, would be taken to Abraham's bosom when they physically died. I would agree those who had obtained a "good testimony" were headed for justification according to God's purpose. But their salvation including justification and glorification had not been completed at the time of their "approval."

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, when they "obtained approval" they were in God's favor, and if nothing changed, would be taken to Abraham's bosom when they physically died. I would agree those who had obtained a "good testimony" were headed for justification according to God's purpose. But their salvation including justification and glorification had not been completed at the time of their "approval."

Can't argue with that, though I would place a distinction between their temporal justification and being eternally redeemed by Christ. Even today, in the economy of the New Covenant, we are either justified or unjust in a temporal context, and that has no impact on our Justification through Christ. Rather than Abraham's justification being made complete through Christ, I view his justification (Romans 4) to be manward, whereas Romans 3 is Godward.

Hope that makes sense.


God bless.

 

[percho]

Abraham's bosom.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Were not those who were of the faith of the Abraham the ones in the bosom of the Abraham.
Gal 3:8,9 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith [of Abraham] are blessed with faithful Abraham.

The father of us all.

Now was the promise to Abraham, that in his seed [singular] all the nations of the earth would be blessed, that is, to all the nations of the earth the promise of the Spirit would be available?

Therefore

Gal 3:27-29 For as many of you as have been baptized [by receiving the Holy Spirit Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through [the] faith.] into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Are not even the dead in Christ, today, in the bosom of the Abraham?

 

[Van]

How did David "look ahead" and speak about the resurrection? Because God had told Him of God's redemption plan. David did not "look" into the future, but reported what God had said He would do in the future. No crystal ball is in view.

Are those of the faith of Abraham limited just to the OT Saints taken to Abraham's bosom? Nope Every born anew believer is of the faith of Abraham, OT Saints and NT Saints. Each and every one had their faith credited as righteousness by God.

All Israel refers to everyone, Jew or Gentile, that has been born anew as there is no difference in Christ between Jew and Gentile.