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WITHOUT LAW AND UNDER THE LAW

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alex2165, Jul 26, 2024.

  1. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    WITHOUT LAW AND UNDER THE LAW

    Romans 2.12-15

    I often heard from so called "Christians" who are saying that those who lived before Christ are not saved!

    This is the only place in the Bible which is precisely explains of how people who lived at different time periods will be save and judged by GOD.

    Verse 12 revealed talks about people who lived before the Law of Moses and perish without the Law of Moses. This means that this people lived according to their own Conscience which is given to people when Adam was created.

    Conscience is also our Intelligence and involved in thinking and decision making already works in us (in our mind) giving us direction and acknowledgment what is good and what is bad. At this point it is for the people to decide and to choose which of these two choices to choose, the path of evil or of good.


    Basically, Paul said here that before the Law of Moses people were judged according to their own Conscience, which is also preliminary Law of GOD, long before the Law of Moses was given.

    The next verse 13 a little bit off subject, but no less important than the rest of this chapter. Actually, it is universal statement of Paul that covers all who believe in Christ and call themselves as Christians. Many people claim to be Christians but only few truly and loyally and faithfully follow the Christ.

    For this reason, Paul indicated here that listening and not following the Statutes of Christ does not make anyone a Christian, but still remains as an ordinary earthly man or woman.

    The only anyone can prove that he or she a true Christians is to show by their own life how they follow Christ and fulfilling His Commandments and Statutes by obeying His will according to His Teachings, Principals, and Ideals without any hypocrisy.

    The doers of the Law justified before GOD and not the listeners.

    In the next verse 14 Paul continued the same theme of the Law and talks about those Gentiles who never heard about the Law of Moses. Paul perhaps talking here about those Gentiles who lived before the Law or during the Law of Moses but never heard of it. Such people follow their own Conscience which Paul described as "do instinctively the things of the Law," means the preliminary Law of their Conscience works in their souls and direct them in their decisions process.

    Verse 15 specifies precisely that the Paul meant in verse 14, that the Law of Moses is written in their soul-Conscience and their acts judged by their own Conscience of the Law of Moses giving them distinction between good and evil and remains Witness for a Judgment Day to save or to reject them.

    The Conscience and the Law of Moses is the same Law, the only difference is that one is written in our Conscience, but another was written first in the stones and them copied numerous times on writing materials.

    Verse 16 summarize all this in one Statement that Father GOD through His Son Jesus Christ will judge all secrets of every soul ever lived according to His Gospel, which is interpretation and a Copy of the Law of Moses presented in Spiritual Terms and Form.

    Paul called it, "according to my Gospel," which is in reality the Gospel of Christ, but he said this because he is one who delivered it. Similar to that of Moses who did not create the Law himself, but the Law was given through him to Hebrews by GOD.

    The summery of the point is that those who lived before the Law of Moses judge by their Conscience, those who lived under the Law of Moses judged by the Law of Moses, and those who live under Spiritual Commandments of the Law of Moses (the Gospel) to which Christ teach us, we will be judged precisely according to that Law.
     
  2. Baptizo

    Baptizo Member

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    There are some issues with this presentation. Maybe it isn’t intended to be this way, but it really sounds like the Roman Catholic faith plus works doctrine.

    There has only ever been one way that anyone has ever been saved and that is by faith in the Lord.

    Romans 4:2-5 - For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Abraham was a saved man before the law was given.

    It is true that the Gentiles did things written in the law even though they did not live by the law. Faith is still required to be righteous before God.

    Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


    This is impossible.

    James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    What Paul is really saying is that if you attempt to keep the whole law without having faith then you better do it perfectly. The only other way to be righteous before God is sinless perfection and there has only ever been One who has done that.

    We can't see the hearts of others. These secret things God only knows and knows if they are attempting to be justified by law or by faith.

    Now before I get chastised for attempting to refute any works necessary in the life of a Christian, let me summarize it this way...

    Think of a factory. This implies labor, sweat, trying to earn something. Now think of a tree. This implies fruit that grows naturally. The life of a Christian will produce fruit some way, somehow, sometime. Some may grow more quickly or slower than others. This is nothing we do. It is the result of the Holy Spirit actively working in our lives.

    Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
     
    #2 Baptizo, Jul 28, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2024
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    <sigh>
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You've made a common mistake by putting the emphasis on 'conscience' in this passage, but Paul is using the word exactly as he did in Romans 9:1.

    The emphasis (if any) should be here:

    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);

    ...a little deeper in the context is synonymous with:

    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

    Circumcised heart with the law written upon it = true Jews; lead-in to Romans 3:1.
     
    #4 kyredneck, Jul 29, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2024
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Do you say the same about the 'fulfillers of the law'? Romans 13:8-10. That it's 'impossible'?
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    God has ALWAYS had more people among the Gentiles than among the Jews.

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4
     
  7. Alex2165

    Alex2165 Active Member

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    Doers of the Law and not the listeners are justified by GOD:

    (Ezekiel 33.31-32) (Matthew 7.21.24-27, 15.7-9) (Mark 7.6-7-13) (Luke 6.46-49) (Romans 2.13) (James 1.22-25).


    Ezekiel 33.31-32
    31.And they come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people, and hear your words, but they do not do them, they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain (Isaiah 29.13) (Jeremiah 12.2.6).

    32.You are to them like a sensual song by one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument, they hear your words but they do not practice them.


    Matthew 7.21.24-27. Luke 6.46-49
    21. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in Heaven.

    24. Therefore, everyone who hears these Words of Mine and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house upon the rock.

    25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house, and yet it did not fall, it had been founded upon the rock.

    26. And everyone who hears these Words of Mine and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand.

    27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.'


    Romans 2.12-16
    12. All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

    13. Not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

    14. For, when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these not having the Law are a Law to themselves.

    15. In that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their Conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

    16. on the day when, according to my Gospel, GOD will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    James 1.22-25
    22. But prove yourselves doers of the Word and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

    23.If anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror,

    24.once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.

    25.But one who looks intently at the perfect Law, the Law of Liberty (the Spiritual Commandments of the Law of Moses - the Gospel of Christ), and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does.


    Matthew 15.8-9. Mark 7.6-13
    8. 'This people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. (Isaiah 29.13) (Jeremiah 12.2.6) (Ezekiel 33.31) (Matthew 15.7-9) (Mark 7.6-7-13).

    9. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' (Isaiah 29.13) (Jeremiah 12.2.6), (Ezekiel 33.31-32) (Matthew 15.7-9) (Mark 7.6-7-13) (Colossians 2.20-22).
     
  8. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Active Member

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    Romans 2:12-16
    12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT Law(the Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the Law(the Jews) shall be Judged by the law;

    13 (For not the hearers of the Law are just before GOD, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, HAVING NOT the Law, are a Law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    16 In the Day(the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar? | Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.net )
     
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