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The Mark 14:12 Evidence
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
GentleGospeller
Member
No, 'BIBLE (37818)'. It is AD 31 Year, 6th day of the week, 14th of the 1st month Abib/Nisan at Passover, 9 AM to 3 PM (morning and evening sacrifice times).
People are still using the wrong calendars, and wrong methods of calculations.
37818
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant to the question being asked.
37818
Well-Known Member
Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . .
That day is the 14th of Nisan. Being before the evening of Mark 14:17 being therefore evening of the 15th of Nisan following the day of the 14th.
That day is the 14th of Nisan. Being before the evening of Mark 14:17 being therefore evening of the 15th of Nisan following the day of the 14th.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Just checking, you entitled this new thread "Biblical References" but you don't say what the references are for. A quick look at some of the references seems to suggest that they might be connected with another thread, but I feel it would be helpful for people who might come to this thread without having seen the other one to know what these references are about. Thanks!
GentleGospeller
Member
How many threads do we need on this?
There are no historical evidences to April 7, 30 AD as the crucifixion date.
A minority of people (no Biblical scholars to my knowledge) suggest the date as a possibly.
Yes, there are many issues with this date, to include Biblical references that would exclude the date (preperation day before the Temple Passover can be moved forward but not backwards, the date is too early per Luke's dating of Jesus' baptism, the date conflicts with John's dating of Jesus' crucifixion and burial, the date conflicts with the reason for the timing of the crucifixion in Matthew 26, etc.).
Then there are historical errors in your counting.
Tiberius ruled from Sep 14 AD. The earliest date for his 15th year of ruling is 29 AD. The 15th year in which he ruled is 28 AD.
If Jesus was baptized exactly on the 1st day in which Tiberius reigned then he would have been baptized Jan 1 28 AD.
If He was baptized the first possible date in Tiberius' 15th year of reining then He would have been baptized Sep 18 29 AD (Tiberius' 15th anniversary of his reign being 17 Sep 29 AD).
So the answer to the OP is that there is no historical evidence for the crucifixion being April 7 30 AD but there is significant Biblical and historical evidence it could not have been that early.
I lean towards 33 AD, but @GentleGospeller 's 31 AD date is the earliest year the crucifixion could have occurred.
30 AD is simply too early.
Threads merged.
IMHO the most probable date is 33 AD (but this assumes the modern calculations correctly identifies the start of Nisan).
The reason is 33 AD fits the Biblical and historical data (again, assuming Nisan started as calculated).
Thursday
Jesus would have been traveling from Bethany to Jerusalem (about a 45 minute walk) "in the evening" on 13 Nisan and sent disciples ahead. This is the time the Passover would be killed for the Galilean observance (the Pharisees practice). Jesus would have arrived "when evening had come" and ate the Last Supper with His disciples.
Friday
Jesus would have been arrested the previous night. This would be 14 Nisan. He was tried and crucified on preperation day before Passover. This would be the Temple date (the Sadducees). John tells us the following day was also a Sabbath (a high Sabbath). Jesus was laid in a nearby tomb because haste was necessary as the Sabbath was approaching.
The strength of this view is that it fits both the Biblical narrative and historical data. It fits the calculated Hebrew Calendar.
It does not pit Mark against John but instead accepts historical events as they would have been observed in the 1st century.
It allows for Jesus' baptism in the 15th year of Tiberius with time fo Jesus' earthly ministry.
It is also the traditional day passed down through centuries for Jesus' crucifixion.
The weakness is that we cannot definitively know the exact date Nisan began in the 1st century. It is likely that it began as calculated, but we cannot know this as a fact.
The reason is 33 AD fits the Biblical and historical data (again, assuming Nisan started as calculated).
Thursday
Jesus would have been traveling from Bethany to Jerusalem (about a 45 minute walk) "in the evening" on 13 Nisan and sent disciples ahead. This is the time the Passover would be killed for the Galilean observance (the Pharisees practice). Jesus would have arrived "when evening had come" and ate the Last Supper with His disciples.
Friday
Jesus would have been arrested the previous night. This would be 14 Nisan. He was tried and crucified on preperation day before Passover. This would be the Temple date (the Sadducees). John tells us the following day was also a Sabbath (a high Sabbath). Jesus was laid in a nearby tomb because haste was necessary as the Sabbath was approaching.
The strength of this view is that it fits both the Biblical narrative and historical data. It fits the calculated Hebrew Calendar.
It does not pit Mark against John but instead accepts historical events as they would have been observed in the 1st century.
It allows for Jesus' baptism in the 15th year of Tiberius with time fo Jesus' earthly ministry.
It is also the traditional day passed down through centuries for Jesus' crucifixion.
The weakness is that we cannot definitively know the exact date Nisan began in the 1st century. It is likely that it began as calculated, but we cannot know this as a fact.
37818
Well-Known Member
Those references are related to deducing the Julian date April 6, 30 AD crucifixion date.
The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ
Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . .
Mark 14:12 is explicit.
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Yes. It is 14 Nisan. It is when the Passover was killed. The Disciples would have actually seen the Passover being killed as they traveled to Jerusalem. This is twilight beginning 14 Nisan.
37818
Well-Known Member
The "twilight" the Hebrew literally "between the two evenings" meaning the afternoon of the 14th. Not the beginning of the night of the 14th.
Yes. "Twilight" is "between the two evenings".
We are talking of about a 2 hour difference between the Galilean sect interpretation and Jerusalem. And the Galilean sect did not utilize a priest in the process.
The differences can be due to necessity. Jerusalem was not ruled by the Jews and Jewish life was not only more diverse but also more spread out than during Moses' time.
But a lot of the issue was due to the differences in how he Sadducees and Pharisees interpreted the Law.
Regardless, it is a matter of history that the Passover was killed outside of Jerusalem at twilight starting Nisan 14.
That is one weakness of your date. You take the crucifixion out of history to determine a date in accordance with 13th century BC practices with a more tribal nation than existed in the 1st century.
When you remove the crucifixion from its historical setting in the 1st century AD and place it in a setting 13 centuries prior you make the crucifixion a myth.
A lot of people believe that Jesus was crucified on 15 Nisan.
Most New Testament scholars do not.
Point is we can start now and go for decades finding people who agree with us.
The interesting thing is not which date somebody prefers but how they address issues with those dates.
Looking at the video the speaker does not actually explain how John could could place Jesus' death on the day of preperation for the Passover. He just states it is not true but is correct at the same time.
37818
Well-Known Member
It would seem you do not understand the following,
Numbers 28:17-25,
And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein: But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.
Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering. After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering. And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.
The dates of the days of unleavened bread are defined in Exodus 12:18. So how only six of those seven days are during the seven days of the feast are stated in Deuteronomy 16:8.
And only in Numbers 28:22 is the Passover sin offering mentioned and no place else. It is commonly believed there is no Passover sin offering.
Hebrews 10:1.
Let's put it this way.
What you are ignoring is not OT commands but historical facts in how these things were practiced over 1,000 years later.
That is why it will always be impossible for you to even rationalize a probable date. You woukd have to acknowledge history, which you seem reluctant to do.
A modern example would be you arguing that no cities restrict handguns because in 1791 the 2nd Ammendment guaranteed that right.
But we have different views, different interpretations of the Constitution, and different priorities to the Constitution.
The same occurred in the 1st century. The Sadducees were akin to constitutionalists. The Pharisees adopted a more liberal interpretation and often prioritized rabbinic laws over Scripture.
The Sadducees believed the Law belonged to the Temple and were interpreted by the priests while the Pharisees believed the Law belonged to the people and were interpreted by the rabbis.
So one sect killed the Passover at twilight starting 14 Nisan and another at its end. About 2 hours that made a huge difference.
If you want to know what occurred in the 1st century then look at 1st century history, NOT 1300 BC.
I do understand the OT. But I am also aware of 1st century events and differences between Jewish sects.
What you are ignoring is not OT commands but historical facts in how these things were practiced over 1,000 years later.
That is why it will always be impossible for you to even rationalize a probable date. You woukd have to acknowledge history, which you seem reluctant to do.
A modern example would be you arguing that no cities restrict handguns because in 1791 the 2nd Ammendment guaranteed that right.
But we have different views, different interpretations of the Constitution, and different priorities to the Constitution.
The same occurred in the 1st century. The Sadducees were akin to constitutionalists. The Pharisees adopted a more liberal interpretation and often prioritized rabbinic laws over Scripture.
The Sadducees believed the Law belonged to the Temple and were interpreted by the priests while the Pharisees believed the Law belonged to the people and were interpreted by the rabbis.
So one sect killed the Passover at twilight starting 14 Nisan and another at its end. About 2 hours that made a huge difference.
If you want to know what occurred in the 1st century then look at 1st century history, NOT 1300 BC.
@37818
Thank you for the conversation, BTW. I don't think we often appreciate the others participation as much as we should.
I've been working nights so this has been a good way to pass time (discussing this with you, going to Scripture, and reading historical accounts I have not visited in decades).
We do not have to agree to benefit from discussion.
Thank you for the conversation, BTW. I don't think we often appreciate the others participation as much as we should.
I've been working nights so this has been a good way to pass time (discussing this with you, going to Scripture, and reading historical accounts I have not visited in decades).
We do not have to agree to benefit from discussion.
