Every wrong view.

[37818]

". . . You present a theory that makes Christianity a myth existing outside of human history. That is wrong."

We professing Christians disagree on a historicity for the crucifixion. And that as if an actual historical date does not matter.

1 Corinthians 1:10, Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I am persuaded that there is a knowable New Testament - historical date.

Opposed with extra-Biblical history without precise reference.

Points of disagreement are what are easy to come by.

 

[JonC]

The problem is when people seek to place Biblical events in history and insist that the only history to be considered is in Scripture.

The Bible is not a history book. It is redemptive history, but a lot of things are not in the Bible that occurred in history.

For example, we can reference 1st century writing documenting that the Jewish families were not killing the Passover as prescribed in Exodus (Rabbi Gamaliel I is one example).

We know that the day of the Biblical calendar for killing the Passover is 14 Nisan. But at the same time we know that Galilean Jews killed the Passover before sundown on Nisan 13 and ate the Supper as Nisan 14 began (while Judean Jews killed the Passover in the afternoon of Nisan 14 and ate the meal at the start of 15 Nisan).

To ignore the possibility that Mark observed and wrote of the killing of the Passover on 13 Nisan is to seek a mythology separated from history.

It is an attempt to negate other possibilities by divorcing Scripture from actual history.

 

[37818]

But at the same time we know that Galilean Jews killed the Passover before sundown on Nisan 13 and ate the Supper as Nisan 14 began (while Judean Jews killed the Passover in the afternoon of Nisan 14 and ate the meal at the start of 15 Nisan).

To ignore the possibility that Mark observed and wrote of the killing of the Passover on 13 Nisan is to seek a mythology separated from history.

Nisan 13 is never referenced in Biblical history.

 

[37818]

We know that the day of the Biblical calendar for killing the Passover is 14 Nisan.

Who is included in "we?"

 

[JonC]

Nisan 13 is never referenced in Biblical history.

Not true.

Biblical history is the history not only presented in the Bible but also the history of the culture and people living in that time and in that area.

You mean 13 Nisan is not mentioned in the Old Testament (since 14 and 15 Nisan isn't mentioned in the New Testament).

The OT ends around 440 BC. It doesn't include a lot of significant historical developments and events.

When we get to the New Testament we are introduced to several Jewish sects but are not given much about them. BUT we have 1st century accounts that describe their differences.


Biblical history includes the fact that Galilean Jews sacrificed on 13 Nisan, that the Sadducees believed the Law belonged to the Temple while Pharisees believed the Law belonged to the people. But it also includes things that formed these divisions, like the Seleucid Empire and the Hasmonean period.

Biblical history definitely includes sacrificing the Passover on Nisan 13. But you are right that the Old Testament does not.

 

[JonC]

Who is included in "we?"

Anybody who has read the original ceremonial calendar in Exodus and Numbers.

The command was to kill the Pasdover on Nisan 14 at twilight (Exodus 12:6).

The divide was exactly what time and whether at the start or end of Nisan 14. If at the beginning then twilight is actually 13 Nisan, even if ceremonially assigned as the start of 14 Nisan.. If the end it is 14 Nisan proper.

This was not a problem in the days of Moses (wirh a localized Israel), but differences arose.


This is when "we" only includes those who study and know biblical history:

In the 1st century you have a sect killing the Passover in the evening of Nisan 13 (considering it twilight of Nisan 14) and observing the meal on Nisan 14 when evening had come.

On the other hand you have the Sadducees killing the Passover on the evening of 14 Nisan and eating when evening came on 15 Nisan.

Both believed they were following the Law.

And Jesus' Disciples would have been familiar with both practices.

 

[JonC]

@37818,

If you want to know how the Passover was observed in the 1st century (the differences in interpretation), look up the two primary systems (Pharisees and Sadducees).

The difference was how these sects viewed tge Law. The Sadducees adhered to the letter of the Law, but the Pharisees (believing the Law was given to the people) took a more liberal approach.

You are viewing the Passover being killed at twilight on 14 Nisan (the afternoon before 15 Nisan). And it was observed this way.

But the opposing position was twilight on Nisan 14 being the afternoon of Nisan 13 (the start of Nisan 14 instead of its end).


It is a very interesting study. And it explains the reason Mark could have been speaking of Nisan 13 instead of Nisan 14 (in fact, Nisan 13 is more probable).

 

[37818]

Anybody who has read the original ceremonial calendar in Exodus and Numbers.

Not true.

Biblical history is the history not only presented in the Bible but also the history of the culture and people living in that time and in that area.

You mean 13 Nisan is not mentioned in the Old Testament (since 14 and 15 Nisan isn't mentioned in the New Testament).

The OT ends around 440 BC. It doesn't include a lot of significant historical developments and events.

When we get to the New Testament we are introduced to several Jewish sects but are not given much about them. BUT we have 1st century accounts that describe their differences.


Biblical history includes the fact that Galilean Jews sacrificed on 13 Nisan, that the Sadducees believed the Law belonged to the Temple while Pharisees believed the Law belonged to the people. But it also includes things that formed these divisions, like the Seleucid Empire and the Hasmonean period.

Biblical history definitely includes sacrificing the Passover on Nisan 13. But you are right that the Old Testament does not.

Nisan 13 is not mentioned in the Bible.

 

[37818]

@37818,

If you want to know how the Passover was observed in the 1st century (the differences in interpretation), look up the two primary systems (Pharisees and Sadducees).

The difference was how these sects viewed tge Law. The Sadducees adhered to the letter of the Law, but the Pharisees (believing the Law was given to the people) took a more liberal approach.

You are viewing the Passover being killed at twilight on 14 Nisan (the afternoon before 15 Nisan). And it was observed this way.

But the opposing position was twilight on Nisan 14 being the afternoon of Nisan 13 (the start of Nisan 14 instead of its end).


It is a very interesting study. And it explains the reason Mark could have been speaking of Nisan 13 instead of Nisan 14 (in fact, Nisan 13 is more probable).

Hebrew Calendar

 

[JonC]

Nisan 13 is not mentioned in the Bible.

Of course it isn't. "Nisan" is a Bablyonian month. In the Bible it is "Aviv" or "barley ripening".

But I know what you mean.

And yes, the month is only in the Old Testament, which doesn't mention the 13th.

BUT we are talking about the 1st century. The Disciples were not alive in the Old Testament times, and the Old Testament ends centuries before the New begins.

When the New Testament begins we see various Jewish sects. But the New Testament does not explain these sects or even much of their differences.

For this we have to turn to Biblical History.


Two main sects were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Both observed Nisan 14 but at different times.

One observed the start of Nisan 14 by killing the Passover in "between the evenings" before nightfall starting Nisan 14. This would be Nisan 13. They observed the meal when evening had come (sundown) on Nisan 14.

Another observed the of Nisan 14 by killing the Passover in "between the evenings" before nightfall ending Nisan 14. They observed the meal when evening had come (sundown) on Nisan 15.

These two systems caused divisions, as did the first system's lack of a priest and libation differences.

Another sect, the Essenes abandoned Temple worship all together and focused on purity laws. They believed (rightly) that the Sadducees and Temple was corrupt and strayed from God.


The problem here is you place Jesus' Disciples as living during the Exodus from Egypt rather than in the 1st century and completely ignore Biblical History.

 

[JonC]

Hebrew Calendar

In our conversation it does not matter that you cannot distinguish between the Biblical Hebrew Calendar, the Talmudic Hebrew Calendar, and the Post-Talmudic Hebrew Calendar. It would matter if you taught Biblical history, but for our conversation I also assume that the messengers were able to observe the new moon.

I will point out, however, that you have contradicted yourself.

You stated that if the moon was not observed due to visability then the month would start on the next day (giving a 2 day window) which means the Calendar you just posted could be a day off. (An aspect of the Talmudic calendar).

 

[37818]

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

Hebrew Calendar

 

[JonC]

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

Hebrew Calendar

I am willing to use the Talmudic Hebrew Calendar since that is your preferred.

But YOU posted that the moon had to be visable.

It remains true the 1st of the Jewish month is not until that new Moon has become visible or the next day.

We (those who read Biblical history) know this has occurred several times.

How do you know that the moon was visible in Jerusalem on the evening you calculate in 30 AD?

I know we can calculate lunar cycles. But HOW did you calculate the visability local to Jerusalem in 30 AD?????

Until you can answer that you have si.oly made unsubstantiated claims.

 

[JonC]

@37818 ,

The difference between our positions hete is that I advocate using the Biblical Hebrew Calendar and Biblical History while you advocate using the post-Talmudic Hebrew Calendar alone, dismissing Biblical history.


Consider the 13th century Roman coin you suggested. Based on the coin itself, if Tiberius had co-ruled then 12 AD to 13 AD would have been in his 15th year, making Jesus birth to have taken place around 19 BC.

You completely and insistently ignore Biblical history to create a myth.

 

[37818]

@37818 ,

The difference between our positions hete is that I advocate using the Biblical Hebrew Calendar and Biblical History while you advocate using the post-Talmudic Hebrew Calendar alone, dismissing Biblical history.


Consider the 13th century Roman coin you suggested. Based on the coin itself, if Tiberius had co-ruled then 12 AD to 13 AD would have been in his 15th year, making Jesus birth to have taken place around 19 BC.

You completely and insistently ignore Biblical history to create a myth.

Your Hebrew calendar hasn't been shown.

The calendar that I am persuaded of to depict the year of Christ crucifixion can. Hebrew Calendar

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

 

[JonC]

Your Hebrew calendar hasn't been shown.

The calendar that I am persuaded of to depict the year of Christ crucifixion can. Hebrew Calendar

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

The Biblical Calendar is:

14th Aviv Passover

15-21 Aviv feast of Unleavened bread

Aviv, the day after the first Sabbath after Passover - Firstfruits

Sivan, 50 days after Firstfruits - Hag HaShavuot

1 Tishri - Rosh Hashanah

10 Tishri - Yom Kippur

15-22 Tishri - Sukkot


This calendar is based off a visual observation of the sliver of moon just after the new moon (a very thin crescent) which starts the 1st month of the Biblical Calendar (Aviv).

The Biblical Calendar is a ceremonial calendar.

Aviv corresponds with the month of Nisan in the Bablyonian Calendar (the Biblical Calendar is lunar while the Bablyonian is lunar-solar). The Bablyonian months were adopted into the Hebrew Calendar, and the exact calendar being used will depend on the time.

Aviv, for example, is a Hebrew word meaning barley ripening....i.e., Spring.

During the Exile the Jews replaced "Aviv" with Araḫ Nissānu.

But the Biblical Hebrew Calendar is not MY calendar any more than the post-Talmudic Hebrew Calendar is YOUR calendar.

Each was used during different periods of time.


The only difference regarding Aviv is you assume the messengers were able to visually observe the moon while I do not make such assumptions.

That said, your constant arguing is stupid as I already said I use the post-Talmudic calendar when estimating a time frame just like you, but unlike you not because I believe the calendar tells a weather forecast. I don't know the forecast (which means any date is less than beyond doubt) so I use what we do know (lunar cycles).

 

[37818]

The Biblical Calendar is:

14th Aviv Passover

15-21 Aviv feast of Unleavened bread

Aviv, the day after the first Sabbath after Passover - Firstfruits

Sivan, 50 days after Firstfruits - Hag HaShavuot

1 Tishri - Rosh Hashanah

10 Tishri - Yom Kippur

15-22 Tishri - Sukkot


This calendar is based off a visual observation of the sliver of moon just after the new moon (a very thin crescent) which starts the 1st month of the Biblical Calendar (Aviv).

The Biblical Calendar is a ceremonial calendar.

Aviv corresponds with the month of Nisan in the Bablyonian Calendar (the Biblical Calendar is lunar while the Bablyonian is lunar-solar).

No calendar layout? What are it's days of that crucifixion week? We understand the 8 days are the 14th to the 21st. The 7th day Sabbath fell on which of the feast days, re: 15th to the 21st? The 3rd day, 1st day of the week is the day after a Sabbath.

 

[JonC]

Your Hebrew calendar hasn't been shown.

The calendar that I am persuaded of to depict the year of Christ crucifixion can. Hebrew Calendar

The three fold evidence of the resurrection of Christ

You still have not explained exactly how that calculation determines visual observation. How does it calculate a clear sky? How is an overcast sky ruled out?

 

[JonC]

No calendar layout? What are it's days of that crucifixion week? We understand the 8 days are the 14th to the 21st. The 7th day Sabbath fell on which of the feast days, re: 15th to the 21st?

?????

That IS the Biblical Hebrew Calendar per Scripture. Who am I to add to what God gave?

When the Jews observed the first sliver of moon it was 1 Avid. The rest is based off this observation.

BUT when converting dates to a Julian Calendar I also use the post-Talmudic Hebrew Calendar.

The reason is I do not know the forecast (I don't know if the moon was visually observed). So I use what I do know - lunar cycles - while keeping in mind that any year the Biblical Hebrew Calendar was used could be like the several recorded times Aviv began late due to a lack of observation.

 

[JonC]

What are it's days of that crucifixion week?

The days of crucifixion week are simple.

Jesus traveled to Jerusalem as the Passover was being killed. This is outside Jerusalem, so late afternoon on 13 Aviv.

Jesus ate the Supper when evening had come (14 Aviv).

Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem that afternoon the day before Passover with the following day being a Sabbath (14 Aviv).

Jesus was buried before that Sabbath in a nearby tomb (14 Aviv).

Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (16 Aviv).


In the Julian calendar this would be a Friday afternoon crucifixion around 3pm (coincidentally, or not, the same time the Jerusalem Pasdover would be killed).

He would have died Friday afternoon and be raised on the the 3rd day....which would be Saturday night to early Sunday morning...but before light.

It isn't rocket science.

You just have to know the differences between when the Passover was killed in Jerusalem vs outside, and how the Jews counted days.

IF Aviv started on time then the year would be 33 AD. BUT we can't know because before and after this time Aviv started late due to an inability of the messengers to observe the moon or the Sanhedrin not agreeing with the report.