Will God hold Christians accountable for their words and deeds?

[JonC]

This thread is NOT about believers losing their salvation.

Instead it is about whether Christians will recieve their reward according to their own labor, those with a foundation other than Christ being saved but only as one escaping a fire.



Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

The passages in question are Jesus' words in Matthew, Peter's words in 1 Peter, and Paul's words in Roman and Corinthians which warn believers that they will be judged according to their works and held accountable for their words and deeds.

@KenH challenged this, stating that we were forgiven centuries ago and should not be concerned (spiritually) about our actions or voice, that to be concerned with such things is "walking on egg shells". But I'll let Ken state and defend his own position.

 

[KenH]

should not be concerned (spiritually) about our actions or voice

I didn't say that, nor do I believe that. You are trying to poison the well right off the bat.

 

[JonC]

I didn't say that, nor do I believe that. You are trying to poison the well right off the bat.

Then state your position.

I said that God will hold us (Chriatians) a countable for our words and deeds, that we will not lose our salvation but may escape only with our life as one escaping a fire and will be held accountable for our actions.


If you disobey local laws not conflicting with God's Word (like speeding) will you have to account for your disobedience to God or is disobedience to God a minor thing for believers?

If a believer supports the DNC or GOP will God hold that believers accountable for his or her voice?

Or does God view obedience to His commands as forcing Christians to "walk on egg shells"?

 

[KenH]

If you disobey local laws not conflicting with God's Word (like speeding) will you have to account for your disobedience to God or is disobedience to God a minor thing for believers?

Sounds like you think that going 56 mph in a 55 mph zone means that person is either bound for Hell or to spend eternity in a tiny little shack on some deserted side street in Heaven.

God saved me, and by His grace I will not submit to your dead works-based, legalistic, pharisaic religion.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[Van]

It seems to me that this thread should define just how God holds believers accountable for their thoughts and actions.

Is entering heaven as one escaping from a fire, bringing no rewards for service to the Lord, the maximum accountability. Thus during our physical lifetime after being spiritually born anew, we can earn rewards or not. If we are diligent and walk the talk, we may enter heaven "abundantly" which I understand to mean with significant rewards for our service. 2 Peter 1:11

If we are talking about something more or less than this understanding, someone needs to state their position.

 

[37818]

2 Corinthians 5:10, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, . . . According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[JonC]

Sounds like you think that going 56 mph in a 55 mph zone means that person is either bound for Hell or to spend eternity in a tiny little shack on some deserted side street in Heaven.

God saved me, and by His grace I will not submit to your dead works-based, legalistic, pharisaic religion.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Lol.....again you post foolishly because you did not read the post (or Scripture) before you replied.


Christians are never "bound for Hell".

God tells us in His Word that some will escape only with their lives - as one who escapes from a fire.

 

[JonC]

It seems to me that this thread should define just how God holds believers accountable for their thoughts and actions.

Is entering heaven as one escaping from a fire, bringing no rewards for service to the Lord, the maximum accountability. Thus during our physical lifetime after being spiritually born anew, we can earn rewards or not. If we are diligent and walk the talk, we may enter heaven "abundantly" which I understand to mean with significant rewards for our service. 2 Peter 1:11

If we are talking about something more or less than this understanding, someone needs to state their position.

Per the OP we are not talking about salvation but about those who are saved being held accountable.

You do bring up a good question - how does God hold us acvountable for our words and deeds?

Part of this is positive - storing up rewards in Heaven. Part of this is negative - being held accountable for our words and actions. One issue is the foundation upon which we build (being burnt up or lasting). Another issue is forgiveness which Scripture describes on conditional terms (repent from the action, ask, forgive others).

What does being held accountable look like? What does being rewarded look like?

I do not know.

My position is that we will be called into account by God, who judges our actions, and we will be held accountable for our words and deeds. Some will be rewarded. Orders will escape with their lives, as one who escapes a fire. We should live this life knowing that God will judge our actions. But this does not mean a fear of losing our salvation. And it does not mean we cannot be forgiven.

 

[JonC]

.
God saved me, and by His grace I will not submit to your dead works-based, legalistic, pharisaic religion.

This is a false statement.

You mean that you will not submit to God, because I merely repeated His Word.

You condemn God, not me. I was merely the messenger.

 

[Van]

My view of forgiveness is that when we are transferred into Christ, and undergo the washing of regeneration, all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven. So the need to confess our sins (actually sinful thoughts and deeds as the consequence has been forgiven) is to bring about changed behavior thus becoming more Christ-like, and more effective as an ambassador of Christ. This process is called Progressive Sanctification.

Bottom line, I think loss of rewards is as negative as it gets once "in Christ."

 

[KenH]

You mean that you will not submit to God, because I merely repeated His Word.

No, I mean what I wrote. I will not submit to your false gospel, which is really no gospel at all as there is no salvation. Your theolog is built upon a false god, an idol of your own imagination, who you even admit can't save anyone unless they "allow" him to do so. Your false god is basically nothing more than the Greek gods of mythology or like the "superheroes" in modern movies.

You, sir, condition salvation on man, and not CHRIST ALONE.

The Bible tells us about the true and only God:

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

And yet you, sir, claim that you can stay his hand. Well, sir, you CANNOT!!!!

Now, sir, I am done conversing with you.

 

[JonC]

No, I mean what I wrote. I will not submit to your false gospel, which is really no gospel at all as there is no salvation. Your theolog is built upon a false god, an idol of your own imagination, who you even admit can't save anyone unless they "allow" him to do so. Your false god is basically nothing more than the Greek gods of mythology or like the "superheroes" in modern movies.

You, sir, condition salvation on man, and not CHRIST ALONE.

The Bible tells us about the true and only God:

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

And yet you, sir, claim that you can stay his hand. Well, sir, you CANNOT!!!!

Now, sir, I am done conversing with you.

You, again, are wrong.

You post foolishness simply because you speak without knowledge - you ONCE AGAIN failed to read my post before responding.

Christians are saved from condemnation.
We are saved.
In Christ we escape the wrath to come.

BUT this does not mean, as you suggest, that Chriatians can be disobedient without consequence.

God tells us REPEATEDLY several things you reject -

1. Some who escape with their lives will do so as one who escapes from a fire.

2. God will hold Christians accountable for their words and deeds.

3. Our works will be judged.

4. If we do not forgive others we will not be forgiven.


You simply call God a Pharisee and a Liar.

I think the reason you dismiss God's Word on these topics is they do not fit into your theological position as you understand that position.


You are wrong because you have approached Scripture as a smorgasbord where you pick out what you like to create a faith.

We cannot do this. ALL of Scripture is God's Word. We do not get to pick and choose.

 

[JonC]

My view of forgiveness is that when we are transferred into Christ, and undergo the washing of regeneration, all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven. So the need to confess our sins (actually sinful thoughts and deeds as the consequence has been forgiven) is to bring about changed behavior thus becoming more Christ-like, and more effective as an ambassador of Christ. This process is called Progressive Sanctification.

Bottom line, I think loss of rewards is as negative as it gets once "in Christ."

I believe that forgiveness is ongoing, and distinct from salvation (that we are saved but when we sin we need forgiveness).

Do you have an opinion about how these rewards look?

I ask because I don't.

I believe we lay treasures in Heaven, and that we will be judged according to our works, that we can "forfeit our prize" (as Paul states in 1 Cor. 9).

But I believe this because God says thus in His Word. I don't know how these rewards look.

On the other end, I do not know how one who is undaved can recieve greater condemnation than others who are lost.


It is difficult because modern Christianity often presents this as an "all or nothing" issue (with no difference between those those who "escape with their lives as one who escapes a fire" with their "straw" foundation destroyed and those whose works make it through the refining fire).

 

[JonC]

Members who desire to participate in threads:

Note @KenH 's mistake on this and other threads.

He posts strawman arguments because he did not bother to read the posts to which he replies. Doing so he makes emotional arguments that do not apply.

Don't be a Ken.

Discuss, argue, debate, defend....BUT ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE READ THE POST TO WHICH YOU ARE REPLYING.


On this thread the OP states that the discussion is not salvation (Christians are saved, we are not talking about experiencing "the wrath to come" as some will escape with their lives but as one who escapes a fire while others will have works that pass through the refining).

@KenH has ignored the OP and ignorantly created a strawman to "debate". There is no benefit to fighting windmills or beating at the wind.

Read the post. If you need to, read it again. THEN respond.

 

[JonC]

Bottom line, I think loss of rewards is as negative as it gets once "in Christ."

I agree. Christians standing before God being held accountable for their works is, IMHO, standing before this "refining fire".

I think of the refining of jewelry where impurities are destroyed. What is left? Only the "good works" which are rewarded.

I think this because God uses the illustration of some who have built a foundation of straw which is burnt up. They escape only with their lives, as one escapes a fire, while the works of others pass through the refining.

I'm just not sure how this looks. What are these "rewards"?


Reading 1 Peter we can't dismiss the idea of God judging our works, or of merely escaping as one who escapes a fire as being something very much not desired.

Paul even stated that he disciplines his body lest he forfeit the "prize".


Reading these passages, and all of the cautions given to Christians about their works, I think we may take this too lightly because we often focus on "getting in".

I do not understand how this will look.

 

[DaveXR650]

Reading these passages, and all of the cautions given to Christians about their works, I think we may take this too lightly because we often focus on "getting in".

Years ago I was often confused by the passages about wood, hay and stubble because some of the Baptist preachers I listened to were using the passage as a warning to "carnal Christians", not to Christians whose works were not optimal. It was useful to me to come under some more reformed teaching that flat out rejected the carnal Christian doctrine which teaches that someone can get saved, then proceed to live life as if nothing has changed, and indeed nothing has changed except that they now claim to be saved. These folks were not being warned as if in true spiritual danger - only that they might lose rewards in heaven.

I think there are certainly rewards to be had for extra and even fanatical appearing service to God and it is perfectly legitimate to strive to do so. God also gives different abilities and for most of us we may just teach Sunday school or help clean up after a meeting whereas someone else may be an evangelist or missionary. I think for instance, for those of us with moderate abilities, someone who never had time to help at at church because they could concentrate on working more and thus always drive a nicer car - well, that would be wood, hay and stubble.

But someone who claims to be saved and is lax in pursuit of holiness and avoiding sin, and amending their lives and obeying the teachings of Christ - we are not talking about loss of rewards or wood, hay and stubble; we are talking about those who have no reason to claim they are saved at all (or elect either).

 

[JonC]

Years ago I was often confused by the passages about wood, hay and stubble because some of the Baptist preachers I listened to were using the passage as a warning to "carnal Christians", not to Christians whose works were not optimal.

The problem with this is the remainder of the verse - that those who build on wood, hay and stubble will escape with their lives, but only as one escapes from a fire.

I have heard those who believe in universal salvation use this passage to defend their position, but I believe we only escape destruction if we are saved.

 

[DaveXR650]

The problem with this is the remainder of the verse - that those who build on wood, hay and stubble will escape with their lives, but only as one escapes from a fire.

Yes. There is a lot of variation in the way this is taught. We can take that passage as teaching us the higher value of working in such a way and for things that last rather than things that have no value beyond this present world, even though they may not be sinful things in themselves.

But what happens is that on one end you have teaching that says you can claim salvation and then every bit of the Christian life is an option and the only thing in jeopardy is rewards in heaven. On the other hand you can teach that the only evidence of being saved, or of being elect, is the evidence you see in your changed attitudes and behavior. And if you don't have any of that you have no reason to feel secure because you claim to have faith. The problem with that is of course how far do you go. Some of the Puritans I think had a tendency to get into a morbid introspection that made them unhappy themselves and critical of others.

I do believe it is perfectly good to strive to be the best follower of Christ as you can, fully expecting to be rewarded for it. Read Philippians ch. 3. But even there Paul says "Be ye followers together of me and mark those...." He seems to be warning about loss of rewards but also more.

 

[JonC]

Yes. There is a lot of variation in the way this is taught. We can take that passage as teaching us the higher value of working in such a way and for things that last rather than things that have no value beyond this present world, even though they may not be sinful things in themselves.

But what happens is that on one end you have teaching that says you can claim salvation and then every bit of the Christian life is an option and the only thing in jeopardy is rewards in heaven. On the other hand you can teach that the only evidence of being saved, or of being elect, is the evidence you see in your changed attitudes and behavior. And if you don't have any of that you have no reason to feel secure because you claim to have faith. The problem with that is of course how far do you go. Some of the Puritans I think had a tendency to get into a morbid introspection that made them unhappy themselves and critical of others.

I do believe it is perfectly good to strive to be the best follower of Christ as you can, fully expecting to be rewarded for it. Read Philippians ch. 3. But even there Paul says "Be ye followers together of me and mark those...." He seems to be warning about loss of rewards but also more.

I think it depends on the issue at hand.

If a Christian supports the DNC are they supporting evil? Yes. Is it a sin? Yes. Does this mean they are no longer saved? No.

If a Christian cheats on his or her taxes are they disobedient to God? Yes. Is it a sin? Yes. Do they lose their salvation? No.

If Paul did not discipline his body and he forfieted "the prize" woukd he also forfeit his salvation? I do not believe so.


I lean towards @Van 's view that we are talking about "rewards".

I do not believe this is about earning salvation through works but instead about "laying up treasures in Heaven".

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not believe this is about earning salvation through works but instead about "laying up treasures in Heaven".

I'm not aware of anyone who says it's about earning salvation through works.

I lean towards @Van 's view that we are talking about "rewards".

I lean towards that too. I will say that I looked it up in Barnes commentary and he said it was about having a true Christian foundation but then adding things like pomp, ceremony, vestments, additional rules and so on that are of no real value. I had not thought of that.

My concern is that the passage is also used to allow a life of willful, persistent sin to be excused by claiming this passage. That is a misuse of the passage.