What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

[ChristB4Us]

Out of all the denominations, being a former Covenant United Presbyterian Church member, I would think I would identify as a Baptist, but then again, there has been differing theologies within the Baptist denomination and they do not all agree with each other, and so I am not sure how I am to post in this forum since some sections of the forums are listed as "Baptists Only".

I had come across one Baptist member that was more from the mindset of Pentecostals & Charismatics with emphasis on the Holy Spirit and believing tongues are for private use which I do not agree with when the Holy Spirit in me and scripture would have me focus on the Bridegroom in living my reconciled relationship with God the Father by, so as to avoid the spirits of the antichrist that is in the world that seeks to visits with signs and lying wonders to take my eyes off of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, in the assembly or fellowship.

Usually I would come across the differing of belief where one insists water baptism is necessary for salvation even though the majority, at least the Baptists I had come across online, says it is not required for salvation but that is what a saved believer does for announcing publicly that they seek to be a follower or a disciples of Jesus Christ of which I can agree with.

Then I saw someone on here proclaiming that he is not a strict Calvinist which I assume is to declare his stance as a former Baptist member of the forum that has now returned to the forum.

I am of that belief that I should not be identified as a follower of Calvin or to preach Calvinism since scriptures does speak against that but to identify as a follower or as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
:
So I guess my question is... can someone that identifies as a Baptist has to agree with Calvinism here to post in the Baptists only sections of the forum or what is it that qualifies a Christian as a Baptist other than being a Christian that follows Jesus Christ by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to do that?

I find it disturbing that the forum separates Christians from Baptists when Christians that are abiding in Him speaking the same thing and holding to the same judgment are of that one body of Christ, but then again, I have found that not all Baptists are doing the same thing and so why bother with "Baptist's Only" stuff?

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

I can understand separating Catholics or various non-Baptist members that preach a denominational theology that the majority of Baptists do not ascribe to nor practice, but I am not sure why you would limit those that just call themselves Christians as separate from Baptists when Baptists are Christians?

Or am I ignorant of some certain aspect of Baptist theology that requires Christians to be Baptists?

 

[John of Japan]

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

We Baptists are determined as Baptists by what are called the "Baptist Distinctives." They are basically about polity and ecclesiology rather than theology. That is, there are Calvinist Baptists and Arminian Baptists and various positions in between.

There are various ways of stating the distinctives, but here is my own explanation:


The Baptist Distinctives
John R. Himes

INTRODUCTION: The Baptist Distinctives are those doctrines and positions which make a person or a church a Baptist. There is some variation in such lists, but this list is the usual one. Please note that some of these are also Protestant distinctives, being held by all Protestant churches since the Reformation. However, most Baptists do not consider themselves to be Protestants, since Baptist history began outside of the Catholic Church or any other denomination.

1. The Bible as the Sole Rule of Faith and Practice (2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21)
A. This is, of course, a Protestant doctrine as well as a Baptist doctrine.
B. Baptist churches do not hold to creeds in general, but have doctrinal statements for their churches and parachurch organizations.
C. Some Baptist churches in the past have had catechisms, but this is not common nowadays.

2. Salvation by Grace through Faith Alone (John 3:16, 3:36, Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5)
A. In order to be saved the sinner must believe in Jesus Christ as Savior. No ceremony or good work is necessary for salvation, not even Baptism or church attendance.
B. This is of course also a Protestant doctrine, going back to Luther’s realization of what the Bible means by “The just shall live by faith.”

3. Autonomy of the Local Church (Matthew 22:15-22; Acts 15:17-29)
A. Each Baptist church governs itself by voting as a congregation. Baptist churches are not under a hierarchy like most denominations, nor do they have a government of elders like the Presbyterians. The word “elder” in the New Testament simply refers to pastors (1 Peter 5:1-4).
B. The “lot” cast in Acts 1:26 to choose the successor to Judas was actually a method of voting, using black and white stones.
C. Unfortunately, some Baptist churches nowadays have begun following the “elder rule” pattern of the Presbyterians. To many Baptists, this means that such churches are no longer Baptist.

4. The Separation of Church and State (Colossians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5, 19, 23)
A. This is an important Baptist doctrine. Many Baptists in history have been persecuted for this doctrine, but in forming this first amendment to the US Constitution, Thomas Jefferson was influenced by Baptist pastor Roger Williams.
B. “Let Caesar's dues be paid To Caesar and his throne; But consciences and souls were made to be the Lord's alone” (George W. Truett, famous Baptist pastor).

5. Only Two Ordinances: Baptism by Immersion and the Lord’s Supper (Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-32)
A. Baptists have always held that the only Biblical method of baptism is by immersion, since this is the undisputed meaning of the word “baptism” (baptisma, βάπτισμα; verb baptizo, βαπτίζω) in the original Greek. Baptist churches do not accept people for membership who have been baptized by sprinkling or pouring as a child or adult.
B. Baptists call these two ceremonies “ordinances,” not “sacraments.” This is because sacraments are thought to be helps to grace, but ordinances are simply commands by Christ designed to help us remember His substitutionary atonement. Baptists see no efficacy in baptism or the Lord’s Supper.

6. A Regenerate Church Membership (Acts 2:47)
A. This is the doctrine that only saved people should be church members. Baptist churches require a salvation testimony and baptism by immersion for membership.
B. The failure of non-Baptist American churches in this area led to what is called the “Halfway Covenant” in the 18th century. Through this someone who was sprinkled as a child could be a member of the church. Thus, many churches were full of lost people, necessitating the Great Awakening, the great American revival of the 18th century.

7. Two Offices in the Local Church: Pastor and Deacon (Philippians 1:1)
A. The pastor leads the local church. Baptists do not have a hierarchy with bishops above the pastor. The word “bishop” in the King James Bible simply means “overseer” in the original Greek (1 Timothy 3:1-7, Acts 20:17-38).
B. The deacons are there to help the pastor in practical matters as servants (Acts. 6:1-6, 1 Timothy 3:8-13). They do not function as a government in a Baptist church.

8. The Priesthood of the Believer (Rev. 1:6). This is, of course, a Protestant doctrine. Each individual believer must read and interpret the Bible for himself or herself; each believer has that right.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

Thanks for the welcome, John of Japan.

And thanks for answering my questions.

We Baptists are determined as Baptists by what are called the "Baptist Distinctives." They are basically about polity and ecclesiology rather than theology. That is, there are Calvinist Baptists and Arminian Baptists and various positions in between.

There are various ways of stating the distinctives, but here is my own explanation:


The Baptist Distinctives
John R. Himes

INTRODUCTION: The Baptist Distinctives are those doctrines and positions which make a person or a church a Baptist. There is some variation in such lists, but this list is the usual one. Please note that some of these are also Protestant distinctives, being held by all Protestant churches since the Reformation. However, most Baptists do not consider themselves to be Protestants, since Baptist history began outside of the Catholic Church or any other denomination.

That is the Baptist assembly I wish to affiliate with but have a hard time finding.

1. The Bible as the Sole Rule of Faith and Practice (2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21)
A. This is, of course, a Protestant doctrine as well as a Baptist doctrine.
B. Baptist churches do not hold to creeds in general, but have doctrinal statements for their churches and parachurch organizations.
C. Some Baptist churches in the past have had catechisms, but this is not common nowadays.

I prefer a Baptist church that does not hold to any ecumenical creeds that has errors in it.

Unfortunately for Protestant churches, they are not using the Bible as a guideline for faith & practices when they seeing communion as "holy" by believing Christ's presence is in the bread and the wine and thereby committing idolatry. At the link below to Bible gateway is the reproof in 1 Corinthians 10:14-23.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:14-23 - King James Version

My former Presbyterian church is presenting "holy" communion as sacraments AND believing that they are receiving spiritual benefits when partaking in communion. At one time they used to begin communion service with :"We come into His presence today.." which is a lie since He is in us and with us always and so we should be saying what we really mean, but seeing how they believe His presence is in the bread and the wine, then I can understand "why:" they began communion service that way.

We are to do communion only in remembrance of Him. If Jesus had meant for us to do communion for anything far more important that doing it in remembrance of Him, He would have led with that, but He did not. We are to proclaim the Lord's death till He comes as communion is a reminder for what he has done on the cross in having saved us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

to be continued....

 

[ChristB4Us]

2. Salvation by Grace through Faith Alone (John 3:16, 3:36, Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5)
A. In order to be saved the sinner must believe in Jesus Christ as Savior. No ceremony or good work is necessary for salvation, not even Baptism or church attendance.
B. This is of course also a Protestant doctrine, going back to Luther’s realization of what the Bible means by “The just shall live by faith.”

Unfortunately The Protestant churches have gone astray with that apostate altar call of Billy Graham in making that commitment to follow Christ as if keeping it is the way to have assurance of salvation. It is no wonder why Billy Graham did not believe Jesus would accept him because he was not always a good Christian in his interview with Tony Snow.

Tony Snow Interviews Billy Graham (deceptioninthechurch.com)

SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much. ~~ end of quote from link

That is why my former church became the center for the Promise Keepers movement in the Shenango Valley as if that commitment to follow Christ was not enough to make a believer follow Jesus, and yet that religious calling failed as well.

But they refuse to see the evil of it as we can only live by faith in Jesus Christ as we place our confidence in Him to finish what He has started since He is our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him daily in resisting sins and laying aside all provisions for the flesh that would tempt us or cause us to sow to the flesh in thought, word, or deed.

So Jesus has set me free from all yokes of bondages to rest in His New Covenant to me that He will do this and all he asks from me is to believe Him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

to be continued......

 

[ChristB4Us]

3. Autonomy of the Local Church (Matthew 22:15-22; Acts 15:17-29)
A. Each Baptist church governs itself by voting as a congregation. Baptist churches are not under a hierarchy like most denominations, nor do they have a government of elders like the Presbyterians. The word “elder” in the New Testament simply refers to pastors (1 Peter 5:1-4).
B. The “lot” cast in Acts 1:26 to choose the successor to Judas was actually a method of voting, using black and white stones.
C. Unfortunately, some Baptist churches nowadays have begun following the “elder rule” pattern of the Presbyterians. To many Baptists, this means that such churches are no longer Baptist.

Due to the apostate modern Presbytery, I have to agree with the local church being submissive to the word of God.

I have to disagree with that definition of elder as meaning pastors. Elders are those members of the congregation that watches over the body of Christ that are rooted in the word to give correction or reproof when needed and that includes overseeing the pastors because if the pastor goes astray, then the whole assembly will too.

Pastors are not supermen. They do not serve as the whole body of Christ in watching over the flock.

1 Corinthians 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Unfortunately for Protestant, at least for my former church, they will lead any new elder or deacon to make an oath or a vow when taking that office and no where in scriptures does it teach that as a necessity. That is what they get for having that religious mindset of that commitment to follow Christ which the evangelism team uses for local outreach. It is also to be noted that my former church was going to address Freemasonry until they found out how many church members were Freemasons and so they dropped it. I would have to wonder if all those commitments and vows added to the church was introduced or put in place by Freemasons ( also Billy Graham was a Freemason )

It gets worse when my former church limit the term of service for said elders and deacons to 4 years. This create the problem of finding those that qualify as well as willing, and so that was how it gravitated towards women filling those positions.

to be continued.....

 

[ChristB4Us]

4. The Separation of Church and State (Colossians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5, 19, 23)
A. This is an important Baptist doctrine. Many Baptists in history have been persecuted for this doctrine, but in forming this first amendment to the US Constitution, Thomas Jefferson was influenced by Baptist pastor Roger Williams.
B. “Let Caesar's dues be paid To Caesar and his throne; But consciences and souls were made to be the Lord's alone” (George W. Truett, famous Baptist pastor).

From Wikilink "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws respecting an establishment of religion; prohibiting the free exercise of religion; or abridging the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances."

The first amendment does not prohibit any American , elected official or otherwise from expressing his or her belief. Somehow they got that misapplied into prohibiting any teacher or student from sharing his or her faith in school. They tried to censor mentioning Jesus in the military or in the media which kind of smacks freemason philosophy since they do not allow mentioning Jesus's name in the lodge itself.

to be continued.....

 

[ChristB4Us]

5. Only Two Ordinances: Baptism by Immersion and the Lord’s Supper (Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-32)
A. Baptists have always held that the only Biblical method of baptism is by immersion, since this is the undisputed meaning of the word “baptism” (baptisma, βάπτισμα; verb baptizo, βαπτίζω) in the original Greek. Baptist churches do not accept people for membership who have been baptized by sprinkling or pouring as a child or adult.
B. Baptists call these two ceremonies “ordinances,” not “sacraments.” This is because sacraments are thought to be helps to grace, but ordinances are simply commands by Christ designed to help us remember His substitutionary atonement. Baptists see no efficacy in baptism or the Lord’s Supper.

I am not seeing any scripture that specifies water baptism by immersion as that "ordinance" per Matthew 28:19,20, but I can agree that the Lord's supper is an ordinance when done properly. Since Paul did not come to baptize but preach the gospel, I fail to see why such emphasis on the kind of water baptism for new believers is required or need to emphasized upon.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

But I am glad that Baptists in general, do not see it as necessary for obtaining salvation.

to be continued....

 

[ChristB4Us]

6. A Regenerate Church Membership (Acts 2:47)
A. This is the doctrine that only saved people should be church members. Baptist churches require a salvation testimony and baptism by immersion for membership.
B. The failure of non-Baptist American churches in this area led to what is called the “Halfway Covenant” in the 18th century. Through this someone who was sprinkled as a child could be a member of the church. Thus, many churches were full of lost people, necessitating the Great Awakening, the great American revival of the 18th century.

I had gone to a Baptist church for immersion water baptism, using it as if maybe I was missing something for why I was having trouble overcoming sin. It was later that the Lord set me free from looking to myself in doing the best I can by keeping that commitment to follow Him to resting in His New Covenant to me that He will do it and all he asks from me is to believe Him ( of the actual event was when He delivered me from the covenant with my mouth not to cuss out at the warehouse but He led me to see that I am to be set free from my commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life and just believe Him that He is..

Not sure if that Baptist church saw me as a member now but I was water baptized by immersion. I had stopped going because the pastor afterwards gave out that ultimatum about believers needing to make a recommitment to follow Christ.

It has no power. By trusting Jesus Christ to help me to follow Him daily in thought word, and deed, is how I am to follow Him and that is by faith in Jesus Christ. His words and his commandments lets me know what I should pray for that He helps me to do.

To be continued....

 

[ChristB4Us]

7. Two Offices in the Local Church: Pastor and Deacon (Philippians 1:1)
A. The pastor leads the local church. Baptists do not have a hierarchy with bishops above the pastor. The word “bishop” in the King James Bible simply means “overseer” in the original Greek (1 Timothy 3:1-7, Acts 20:17-38).
B. The deacons are there to help the pastor in practical matters as servants (Acts. 6:1-6, 1 Timothy 3:8-13). They do not function as a government in a Baptist church.

The Presbytery today is not the Biblical Presbytery back then. The Presbytery is to be in that city where the assemblies of believers are at. 1 Timothy 4:14 The modern Presbytery is practically what the Bible warned us against as the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which is conquest of the laity rather than submission to the Word of God. The deeds of the Nicolaitanes is sexual immorality which stems from such doctrines. So when the Presbytery made compromises with social values, then they expected the churches under their wing to follow. Nobody knows who they are or how they got elected to that position in the Presbytery. And nobody seems to be able to hold them accountable to the word of God.

My former church switched Presbytery that was allowing gay pastors to a more Biblical one but it is not any better when they promote that mindset of focusing on the Holy Spirit and even praying for the Holy Spirit to be sent into the congregation at times..... as if that is necessary when the Holy Spirit is in each believer of that congregation. By their words, they are denying Him as being in us and thus in that congregation when He is in us in that congregation..

to be continued....

 

[ChristB4Us]

8. The Priesthood of the Believer (Rev. 1:6). This is, of course, a Protestant doctrine. Each individual believer must read and interpret the Bible for himself or herself; each believer has that right.

We are to do that with the Lord's help in giving us wisdom, understanding, and discernment in the use of His words in judging good and evil. James 1:5-8 & Hebrews 4:12-16

I thank you for your help but since there are a few areas of disagreement, do I qualify as a Baptist member of the forum or should I limit myself to the Christian part of the forum?

 

[xlsdraw]

Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and the Son, ect.........

Wouldn't you agree that Matthew 28:19-20 is a direct command from Jesus?

Therefore, Baptism is regarded as the first act of obedience after salvation. If a person truly believes Jesus and loves Jesus, why would they not get baptized?

All scriptural baptisms were immersion. Sprinkling is what is not scriptural.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and the Son, ect.........

Wouldn't you agree that Matthew 28:19-20 is a direct command from Jesus?

Therefore, Baptism is regarded as the first act of obedience after salvation. If a person truly believes Jesus and loves Jesus, why would they not get baptized?

All scriptural baptisms were immersion. Sprinkling is what is not scriptural.

But there is no indication as plainly written that water baptism has to be done by immersion.

I apply Matthew 28:19 with verse 20 whereby it is more about commanding His disciples in teaching new believers about how to be His disciples rather than emphasizing water baptism by immersion.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So just water baptizing any new believer does not get the evangelist nor the church off the hook as if they do not need to teach new believers about how to be His disciples.

And you have to use His discernment between how Matthew was written to what they actually did which was baptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ as that is the name of the Triune God to call upon to be saved.

So between applying His words, and the necessity of water baptism which Paul debunked as necessary for salvation in 1 Corinthians 1:17-18,21, then why would there be an emphasis on water baptism by immersion in order to be His disciple?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Although It does not mention Saul being water baptized by Ananias in Acts 9th chapter, Paul recounts the event in Acts 22 where he did mention that he was water baptized.

Acts 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Not seeing how anyone can be water baptized by immersion all the time.

If water baptism is not necessary for salvation then why strain at the gnat for specifying water baptism by immersion when nowhere in any epistle of the New Testament does it say it has to be done in that way?

Granted, I do not believe infant baptism is Biblical but raising children up in the words of the Lord is, and yet I hear Christian parents claiming that little children are too young to understand the gospel which is baloney. When parents can teach little children right from wrong in minding their parents, they can teach them the words of the Lord.

So I agree that we are to teach new believers His words and His commandment whereby we look to Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to do that, but emphasizing that commandment of water baptism that has to be done by only immersion, is adding to His words in having it done to be considered His disciple publicly.

And believe me, a lot of new believers that have been water baptized can still go astray from His commandments in following Him daily for why specifying water baptism by immersion which is a one time event as necessary for discipleship when living by faith in Him to help us to follow Him daily is.

 

[xlsdraw]

But there is no indication as plainly written that water baptism has to be done by immersion.

I apply Matthew 28:19 with verse 20 whereby it is more about commanding His disciples in teaching new believers about how to be His disciples rather than emphasizing water baptism by immersion.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So just water baptizing any new believer does not get the evangelist nor the church off the hook as if they do not need to teach new believers about how to be His disciples.

And you have to use His discernment between how Matthew was written to what they actually did which was baptizing them in the name of Jesus Christ as that is the name of the Triune God to call upon to be saved.

So between applying His words, and the necessity of water baptism which Paul debunked as necessary for salvation in 1 Corinthians 1:17-18,21, then why would there be an emphasis on water baptism by immersion in order to be His disciple?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Although It does not mention Saul being water baptized by Ananias in Acts 9th chapter, Paul recounts the event in Acts 22 where he did mention that he was water baptized.

Acts 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Not seeing how anyone can be water baptized by immersion all the time.

If water baptism is not necessary for salvation then why strain at the gnat for specifying water baptism by immersion when nowhere in any epistle of the New Testament does it say it has to be done in that way?

Granted, I do not believe infant baptism is Biblical but raising children up in the words of the Lord is, and yet I hear Christian parents claiming that little children are too young to understand the gospel which is baloney. When parents can teach little children right from wrong in minding their parents, they can teach them the words of the Lord.

So I agree that we are to teach new believers His words and His commandment whereby we look to Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to do that, but emphasizing that commandment of water baptism that has to be done by only immersion, is adding to His words in having it done to be considered His disciple publicly.

And believe me, a lot of new believers that have been water baptized can still go astray from His commandments in following Him daily for why specifying water baptism by immersion which is a one time event as necessary for discipleship when living by faith in Him to help us to follow Him daily is.

Sorry that I made the mistake of engaging you.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Sorry that I made the mistake of engaging you.

Why? You were only sharing what you had believed to be the truth but in all respect, it does not really say that.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I am sure water can be available for water baptism even though water is not always available for when someone is born again when believing the preaching of the cross, but can the depths of water be available for baptism "immersion" all the time?

Since His hand is not shortened to save anyone for lack of water for water baptism since water baptism has nothing to do with salvation, then I am not seeing why the emphasis is on water baptism by immersion as being that specific commandment for water baptism.

If you can refer to scriptures for that as something taught in any of the epistles to the churches to do water baptism by immersion as being that specific commandment, then feel free to do so as we are always learning something new in the Lord, but I would think I would have come across something like that for why all churches would be doing water baptism in that manner.

Granted, water baptism by immersion has been done in the scripture, and if a new believer has opportunity to do so, then they should do it as a public witness that he is a new believer in Jesus Christ that desire to follow Him as His disciple.

Anyway, there is no shame in sharing what you believe to be true but for abiding in Him & His words, we should be careful we are not inferring something that is not specifically stated let alone repeated as such for how water baptism is "only" to be done by immersion. No believer has to worry about not having water baptism done by immersion when we are to follow Him by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to resist sin daily in following Him..

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for the welcome, John of Japan.

And thanks for answering my questions.

You are entirely welcome.

 

[John of Japan]

But there is no indication as plainly written that water baptism has to be done by immersion.

Actually, to be biblical baptism must be by immersion. The very word "baptize" in the Greek is baptizo (βαπτίζω) means "dip, immerse" (Gingrich Lexicon and any other lexicon, including one I have in Japanese). Likewise, the noun "baptism" (baptisma, βάπτισμα) means "immersion."

When sprinkling or pouring is done pretending to be baptism, the beautiful symbolic meaning of being buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-4) is lost.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Actually, to be biblical baptism must be by immersion. The very word "baptize" in the Greek is baptizo (βαπτίζω) means "dip, immerse" (Gingrich Lexicon and any other lexicon, including one I have in Japanese). Likewise, the noun "baptism" (baptisma, βάπτισμα) means "immersion."

When sprinkling or pouring is done pretending to be baptism, the beautiful symbolic meaning of being buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-4) is lost.

I am currently researching the matter at this link to that thread by Alan Gross.

The Historical Baptist Position on Baptism. CHAPTER 1: WATER BAPTISM: PROPER MODE.

But I do wonder if you are referring to this reference about being buried and raised in Christ as if referring to water baptism by immersion when that can also be applied to the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

"as does baptism (Romans 6:4-5; "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" ~~ quoted from that link.

When I read this from that first epistle from Peter...

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I apply verse 21 as deferring from water baptism since water is used to put away the filth of the flesh, but instead to the answer of a good conscience towards God by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, hence the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

So if that is your reference in mind, I read your reference of baptism in Romans 6:4-5 Ias referring to that baptism of the Holy Ghost whenever anyone believes in Jesus Christ.

Kind of like this reference that some Baptists misapply as water baptism as necessary for salvation when I apply that as that promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost for all those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ.
.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I'll be reading & addressing the rest of Alan Gross's opening post to determine whether or not water baptism can only be recognized and be done by immersion.

If you wish to participate in that thread as the Lord enables you in helping me to see that definitive form of baptism by immersion, I would be thankful, but so far, I have not but shall continue, God be willing.

 

[37818]

If water baptism is not necessary for salvation then why strain at the gnat for specifying water baptism by immersion when nowhere in any epistle of the New Testament does it say it has to be done in that way?

This is a nonsense question.

It is like saying it, If water immersion is not necessary for salvation then why strain at the gnat for specifying water immersion by immersion when nowhere in any epistle of the New Testament does it say it has to be done in that way?

 

[John of Japan]

But I do wonder if you are referring to this reference about being buried and raised in Christ as if referring to water baptism by immersion when that can also be applied to the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

"as does baptism (Romans 6:4-5; "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" ~~ quoted from that link.

No, Romans 6 must refer to water baptism, or else the symbolic language is useless. There is nothing in pneumatology that symbolically means we are buried with Christ and raised with Him.

And I must say, if you do not believe that immersion (the very meaning of the word "baptize") is not a sine qua non, you are not a Baptist. Sorry!

 

[John of Japan]

No, Romans 6 must refer to water baptism, or else the symbolic language is useless. There is nothing in pneumatology that symbolically means we are buried with Christ and raised with Him.

Let me clarify this. The metaphorical language of immersion as representing the death of Christ, and coming out of the water as representing the resurrection, cannot refer to the baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the language of Romans 6 must refer to water baptism, where the metaphors are very clearl. For example, while we may say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit means we must be immersed in Him and His will and leading somehow, there is nothing in pneumatology that represents some kind of resurrection, or rising, of the Holy Spirit in our life.

And I must say, if you do not believe that immersion (the very meaning of the word "baptize") is not a sine qua non, you are not a Baptist. Sorry!

This needs no clarification. It is a fact of Baptist history. You simply cannot be a Baptist if you do not believe that baptism by immersion is the only mode.

Famous missionary Adoniram Judson was a Congregationalist when he boarded the ship to India in 1812, where he was going to work with Baptist pioneer William Carey. Aboard the ship, he began studying the issue of baptism so he could counter Carey, but lo and behold, he was forced to the position that baptism must be by immersion. So, on the ship Judson became a Baptist, meaning the first foreign missionary from the US was a Baptist! Not able to be accepted into India, he ended up in Burma and became a Bible translator and pioneer church planter, an awesome Baptist missionary.