Who Chooses?

[Silverhair]

You are reading a condition into the text. The verse simply says that whosoever has the act of belief will have eternal life as a result. Read further until you get to John 6 and you’ll discover that Jesus says that the Father is the one that gives that act of the belief to the sheep.

Your reply shows the error of your thinking,
"The verse simply says that whosoever has the act of belief will have eternal life as a result."
The act of belief is the condition for which God responds by giving the believer eternal life.

I just read through all 84 times that we find believe, believed, believes in John and guess what I did not find. "that the Father is the one that gives that act of the belief to the sheep."

What I did find over and over is that it is the person that has to believe. God does not give a person faith.

I also read through all 18 times that we find sheep in John. Guess what I did not find there.
"that the Father is the one that gives that act of the belief to the sheep."

So if neither of those searches turned up what you say is there could it be that you are just reading it into the text to fit your preconceived theological view?

Searches done in NKJV

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

Yea, that's what the Calvinist's believe, Irresistible Grace! No one cant's resist it, right?

Correct.

I don't want to be one of those robots running around heaven.

Calvinists do not suggest that God created human beings as mere robots.

He planned, before I was born, to give me that Gospel knowing I would accept it.

So if God already knew what decisions you would make before you were born, could you really do anything different? Are you saying that your free will has the power to nullify God’s foreknowledge?

 

[Charlie24]

I encourage you to study those passages, whenever, the free will offering is mentioned (not by compulsion of the law").

If I may offer a recent write up by myself: Why does mankind want to believe Satan? - The school of Isaiah

Consider, what you mean by free will. Whether or not choice, or the ability to fulfill what you decide or choose might be more orthodox (true and correct).

I read your article, you're a much better writer than myself! You've got skills!

I define "free will" as the God-given right to choose our own way through this life.

Does God allow that? He wouldn't have it any other way.

I heard a preacher once say that this life is what you might call the testing grounds for eternity. The decisions we make here in this life concerning Jesus Christ will have eternal consequences, as we can plainly see in Scripture.

Every aspect of this life involves independent thinking and decision making. We were given this gift by God in order to not only survive this fallen nature all around us from the fall, but also to choose our way with or without God. He makes His case for His salvation through Son, and let's us respond of our own free will.

 

[Charlie24]

Correct.



Calvinists do not suggest that God created human beings as mere robots.



So if God already knew what decisions you would make before you were born, could you really do anything different? Are you saying that your free will has the power to nullify God’s foreknowledge?

I don't play this game, friend! Take it elsewhere!

 

[Silverhair]

So if God already knew what decisions you would make before you were born, could you really do anything different? Are you saying that your free will has the power to nullify God’s foreknowledge?

God's foreknowledge is just that. It is not fore causation as the calvinist determination would require.

God being omniscient and knows all that will happen and all the free will choices that man will make. Thus His foreknowledge of those that will freely trust in as well as those that will freely reject Christ.

If man does not have a free will then the alternative is that God determines all things including all the sin in the world.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

God's grace given to those who met the condition of faith/trust in Him.

I’m still not seeing the implication of a condition in the text.

It seems to me that you are changing around the order of the words and are reading it as “by faith you now have grace and are saved.”

Please point me to where a condition is clearly stated without going outside the bounds of scripture.

I just read through all 84 times that we find believe, believed, believes in John and guess what I did not find. "that the Father is the one that gives that act of the belief to the sheep."

John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is coming to the Son the same as believing in the Son?

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

I don't play this game, friend! Take it elsewhere!

Do with the scriptures what you will.

 

[Silverhair]

Calvinists do not suggest that God created human beings as mere robots.

The problem for the calvinist is that their theology does lead to that view.

That is why the determinist view is so obviously wrong.

For one to love they have to have an actual free will. We are told to love God and we can do so because God loves us and gave us the free will with which to do so.

 

[Charlie24]

Do with the scriptures what you will.

Thank you!

God bless!

 

[Silverhair]

I’m still not seeing the implication of a condition in the text.

It seems to me that you are changing around the order of the words and are reading it as “by faith you now have grace and are saved.”

Please point me to where a condition is clearly stated without going outside the bounds of scripture.

If you cannot see the condition then it is because you do not want to see it.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

I do not have to change the order of the words. God saves us because we believe. Are you suggesting that there is another reason that He would save us. Perhaps it is because we can stand on one leg and juggle swords or even that we can jump ten feet in the air.

Calvinist struggle way to hard in denying clear text and it just makes them look desperate.

John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is coming to the Son the same as believing in the Son?

How does God draw people to Himself? Creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc. But if you had just read the next verse it would have cleared up some of your confusion.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Many have heard but not all have learned. Not all that are drawn by the Son will be saved even though Christ said He will draw all men.

We see in scripture that many came to the Son for reasons other than trusting in Him. It could have been healing or being fed or just to hear what He was saying so as to ridicule and deny Him.

Or indeed coming to the Son can be because you do believe in Him. So it all depends upon what the context of those words doesn't it.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

If you cannot see the condition then it is because you do not want to see it.

I can't see what isn't there. I guess you have on these special glasses that makes invisible ink appear on the page.

Are you suggesting that there is another reason that He would save us.

No.

Calvinist struggle way to hard in denying clear text and it just makes them look desperate.

So far you haven't offered any exegesis of the text. You simply are inserting your presuppositions into passages.

How does God draw people to Himself? Creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message etc. But if you had just read the next verse it would have cleared up some of your confusion.
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Read Isaiah 54 and you'll discover that God is the one who performs the act of teaching it is only for a specific people. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the teaching from the Father can be resisted.

Not all that are drawn by the Son will be saved even though Christ said He will draw all men.

Later on in John 8, He did say that He will draw all men in the context of the Jews and Gentiles who were seeking after Him, so I'm not sure why you're trying to read that back into John 6. The people He was talking to would have had no idea what He was talking about.

 

[Silverhair]

I can't see what isn't there. I guess you have on these special glasses that makes invisible ink appear on the page.

Then you are not looking. What do you think saved through faith means. It really is not the hard to understand but then again I am not trying to force my theological views on the text.

So far you haven't offered any exegesis of the text. You simply are inserting your presuppositions into passages.

Actually just reading the text as written. You are the one that wants to change what it says, but that seems to be a common way that you handle scripture.

Read Isaiah 54 and you'll discover that God is the one who performs the act of teaching it is only for a specific people. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the teaching from the Father can be resisted.

Then perhaps you should read more of the bible.

Later on in John 8, He did say that He will draw all men in the context of the Jews and Gentiles who were seeking after Him, so I'm not sure why you're trying to read that back into John 6. The people He was talking to would have had no idea what He was talking about.

All you have done is say no to everything and yet do not provide any scripture to support your view.

I will just stick with what the Holy Spirit inspired and you can follow your calvinsit teachers.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

What do you think saved through faith means.

It means if you have faith you are saved, plain and simple. The ability to have faith comes from God, which is what you’re not understanding.

Then perhaps you should read more of the bible.

I’ve examined it thoroughly.

I will just stick with what the Holy Spirit inspired and you can follow your calvinsit teachers.

And you should continue to do so. By the way, I don’t follow Calvinist teachers like I’m in some kind of cult. Calvinists ask the hard questions that most evangelicals have never thought of before. In most cases, they just go along with whatever their pastors say and don’t give it a second thought.

 

[Silverhair]

It means if you have faith you are saved, plain and simple. The ability to have faith comes from God, which is what you’re not understanding.

God has given mankind a free will with which we can choose to trust in Him or reject Him. If that is what you mean by "The ability to have faith comes from God," then you are correct. But since your choice of wording is not precise I could have misunderstood what you intended to say.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

God has given mankind a free will with which we can choose to trust in Him or reject Him.

Chapter and verse please?

 

[Silverhair]

Chapter and verse please?

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Now of course you will deny all these as they do not fit your philosophy.

But you should provide the verses that you think support your view.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

Now of course you will deny all these as they do not fit your philosophy.

All of the verses you cited only tell us about the act of what believers do. I asked for a specific verse that clearly shows that man has a libertarian free will. Do you have a book in your bible that I’m missing? I will ask one last time, please show me a verse that tells us that man has a libertarian free will.

 

[Silverhair]

All of the verses you cited only tell us about the act of what believers do. I asked for a specific verse that clearly shows that man has a libertarian free will. Do you have a book in your bible that I’m missing? I will ask one last time, please show me a verse that tells us that man has a libertarian free will.

We are told to choose
Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Jos_24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Invitation for All, but Not All Accept
Mat_23:37 – “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

Rev_3:20 – “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

We can resist or even reject God’s grace
Act_7:51 – “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”

By the way you just answered you own question. "All of the verses you cited only tell us about the act of what believers do."
They have to have a free will to make choices/to act or all the choices of man have been made for them by God in which case God is the one responsible for all the sin.
Are you saying that God is responsible for all the sins that you commit?

The fact that you cannot or rather will not actually trust what the bible says is telling in itself.

But as usual you will deny what the bible says so you can hold to your views.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

We are told to choose

Why do you assume that just because God tells man to choose good over evil, that necessarily means that men are capable of choosing good?

 

[Silverhair]

Why do you assume that just because God tells man to choose good over evil, that necessarily means that men are capable of choosing good?

Why would you just assume that God would tell people to do something all the while knowing that it was impossible for them to do so?

Are you suggesting that God is being disingenuous or to be blunt is lying?