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Baptists are Not Protestants.

Charlie24

Active Member
What do I believe to have been different?

Psalm 51:11-12, Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

John 14:16-17, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Your agreement with my view is not what is required.

Whether you believe in OSAS or not, it doesn't really matter as long as you keep the faith to the end.

I have no doubt that each and every one of us will do just that.

There's nothing for anyone to worry about! Just keep that relationship with Christ alive and well until He calls us home.
 
At what point in time did a relationship with Christ become a work of salvation?

That is ridiculous. I'm inclined to believe you need help in your understanding.

If you’re saying that you need to keep willing yourself to have faith, that’s a work salvation. Most of us here understand that the Holy Spirit is the one that does that part for us.

Charlie, I think you need to go back to the chocolate factory and do some further reading.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
If you’re saying that you need to keep willing yourself to have faith, that’s a work salvation. Most of us here understand that the Holy Spirit is the one that does that part for us.

Charlie, I think you need to go back to the chocolate factory and do some further reading.

I think you're right, I need to go back to the chocolate factory.
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Yeah. I hadn't understood that.

Two questions:

How do you know you will be a believer when your life comes to an end?

Did Jesus lie about never perishing? John 10:28, . . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . .
I have been a Baptist for the whole of my adult life and cannot understand how any Bible-believing Baptists could so very badly understand the very clear and obvious teaching in the Bible regarding the salvation of the believer. Indeed, for the first 1,500 years of the church there were only a few doctrines that the entire church believed in without dispute. One of those doctrines was the conditional security of the believer. And in spite of the 500 years since then and all of the strenuous teaching to the contrary, the huge majority of the Church still unreservedly believes in the conditional security of the believer! I have here in my study well over 300 academic level exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of the individual books of the New Testament and very few of them in any way whatsoever support any of the doctrines that fall under the umbrella of eternal security. The reason for this is that the Greek text of the New Testament does NOT teach the eternal security of the believer—it teaches the conditional security of the believer! And, of course, so does a careful reading the English text of the New Testament.

Jesus never lied about anything, but some Christians want so very desperately to believe in the doctrine of eternal security that their minds automatically shut out the very evidence from the Scriptures that prove that the doctrine is dangerously false.

As for John 10:28, proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ, and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life,’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling. The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,

28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and promised to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
I have been a Baptist for the whole of my adult life and cannot understand how any Bible-believing Baptists could so very badly understand the very clear and obvious teaching in the Bible regarding the salvation of the believer. Indeed, for the first 1,500 years of the church there were only a few doctrines that the entire church believed in without dispute. One of those doctrines was the conditional security of the believer. And in spite of the 500 years since then and all of the strenuous teaching to the contrary, the huge majority of the Church still unreservedly believes in the conditional security of the believer! I have here in my study well over 300 academic level exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of the individual books of the New Testament and very few of them in any way whatsoever support any of the doctrines that fall under the umbrella of eternal security. The reason for this is that the Greek text of the New Testament does NOT teach the eternal security of the believer—it teaches the conditional security of the believer! And, of course, so does a careful reading the English text of the New Testament.

Jesus never lied about anything, but some Christians want so very desperately to believe in the doctrine of eternal security that their minds automatically shut out the very evidence from the Scriptures that prove that the doctrine is dangerously false.

As for John 10:28, proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ, and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life,’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling. The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,

28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and promised to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.

This is a hard message to deliver, but it's true! Well done!
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It seems that Charles Spurgeon was also.

He called himself a Baptist and at the same time admitted to believing 3 points of Calvinism.

He couldn't go all the way with the Baptists or the Calvinists. Somewhere in the middle.
There are five points of Calvinism and Spurgeon, as a Calvinist, believed all of them. You need to read one of the biographies and his own sermons.
All the 17th Century Particular Baptists (e.g. Spilsbury, Kiffen, Knollys, Keach, Bunyan) were of course, all Calvinists, as were American Baptists like Adoniram Judson.
 
Last edited:

Charlie24

Active Member
There are five points of Calvinism and Spurgeon, as a Calvinist, believed all of them. You need to read one of the biographies and his own sermons.
All the 17th Century Particular Baptists (e.g. Spilsbury, Kiffen, Knollys, Keach, Bunyan) were of course, all Calvinists, as were American Baptists like Adoniram Judson.

Well, I guess I just learned something. I know that he spoke highly of Calvin but disagreed with him on a some issues.

I've read his sermons where he brought up some of those issues
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
I know that he spoke highly of Calvin but disagreed with him on a some issues. I've read his sermons where he brought up some of those issues
To speak highly of Calvin yet disagree with him is fine. NOTHING to do with "Calvinism" (five points of soteriology that puts salvation as work of the triune God and not man). Don't confuse "Calvin" with "Calvinism". Apples and oranges.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
People should note that the fifth point of Calvinism is "The Perseverance of the Saints." It is not "Once Saved, Always Saved." Christ's sheep will persevere to the end, but it is also necessary that they do. I have written before that our Lord's sheep are of a particular breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. John 10:27. "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me.'
The Christian life is one of struggle, against the world, the flesh and the devil (e.g. Eph. 4:1-6, 17-32; Col. 3:1-11). By God's grace, His people will persevere in that struggle, but if anyone is not engaged in that struggle, but is deceiving himself because he once went forward at a Billy Graham event and had someone pray over him, that person is very likely to hear the dread words of Matt. 7:21-23.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
To speak highly of Calvin yet disagree with him is fine. NOTHING to do with "Calvinism" (five points of soteriology that puts salvation as work of the triune God and not man). Don't confuse "Calvin" with "Calvinism". Apples and oranges.

Calvinism today has so many branches, not so much in Spurgeon's day.
 
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