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Who Chooses?

Dave G

Well-Known Member
It's not that God has chosen the individual for salvation as to whether he will be saved or lost, but that He has chosen man for His plan of redemption. Mankind was predestinated to be saved a certain way, God's redemption plan through Jesus Christ.
No Charlie.
God did indeed choose those whom He wanted to save before the foundation of the world.
There are many places in His word that declare this.

"Choosing man for His plan of redemption" is not what the Scriptures say, and it is not what Paul preached to the churches;
It's not what Peter preached, and not what the Lord Jesus preached to the Jews in John 6 and other places.
Rather, He has chosen to save individuals out of every tongue, tribe and nation of the earth.

Election is of grace, salvation is of grace, and the inheritance of eternal life ( which is to know God ) is by grace.
God does not, and never has, relied on what men can do to save them.
Not "of works" lest any man should boast.

Also, "free will" is a concept that, in the face of what the Lord has to say about man's attitude towards God and our condition starting at birth, simply does not exist.
We as men have a will, but it is entirely and rock-solidly rooted in our love of sin and absolute refusal to repent of it and seek God.
The Lord has quite a bit to say about our "free will" and where our choices as men lead us...
To nothing but rebellion, sorrow and destruction.


The Lord has revealed these truths to His people through His apostles and prophets periodically throughout the centuries.
Please read Romans 1, 2 and 3 and the Palms for more, sir.
 
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Why would you just assume that God would tell people to do something all the while knowing that it was impossible for them to do so?

Are you suggesting that God is being disingenuous or to be blunt is lying?

Matthew 23:37 - Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

Are you able to fulfill this command? If not, is God being disingenuous and lying?
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member

Q. WHO CHOOSES?​

A. Everyone.

Part 1. Sinners choose to hide and flee from God:

Genesis 3:8 [ESV] And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

John 3:19-20 [ESV] And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Romans 1:18-22 [ESV] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

Romans 3:9-12 [ESV] What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."


Part 2. God chooses to condemn sin:​

[Deu 9:5-8 ESV] 5 Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 6 "Know, therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people. 7 Remember and do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD. 8 Even at Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, and the LORD was so angry with you that he was ready to destroy you.

Proverbs 6:16-19 [ESV] There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.


Part 3. God chooses to offer forgiveness (even if people will not choose it)​

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 [ESV] I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." [they did not choose life]

Matthew 23:37 [ESV] "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

John 3:16-18 [ESV] "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. [the world chose to crucify him rather than believe in him]

1 John 1:9 [ESV] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Part 4. God chooses to save some anyway:​

Matthew 16:17 [ESV] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

John 6:44-45 [ESV] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

John 10:25-30 [ESV] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Romans 8:28-30 [ESV] And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Part 5. Because He chose us, we are empowered to choose Him:​

John 3:21 [ESV] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Ephesians 2:8-10 [ESV] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

John 13:34 [ESV] A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
1 Thessalonians 4:9 [ESV] Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another,

Romans 6:16-23 [ESV] Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
No Charlie.
God did indeed choose those whom He wanted to save before the foundation of the world.
There are many places in His word that declare this.

"Choosing man for His plan of redemption" is not what the Scriptures say, and it is not what Paul preached to the churches;
It's not what Peter preached, and not what the Lord Jesus preached to the Jews in John 6 and other places.
Rather, He has chosen to save individuals out of every tongue, tribe and nation of the earth.

Election is of grace, salvation is of grace, and the inheritance of eternal life ( which is to know God ) is by grace.
God does not, and never has, relied on what men can do to save them.
Not "of works" lest any man should boast.

Also, "free will" is a concept that, in the face of what the Lord has to say about man's attitude towards God and our condition starting at birth, simply does not exist.
We as men have a will, but it is entirely and rock-solidly rooted in our love of sin and absolute refusal to repent of it and seek God.
The Lord has quite a bit to say about our "free will" and where our choices as men lead us...
To nothing but rebellion, sorrow and destruction.


The Lord has revealed these truths to His people through His apostles and prophets periodically throughout the centuries.
Please read Romans 1, 2 and 3 and the Palms for more, sir.

With all due respect Brother Dave, take a look at the word "predestination."

"pre" "destination" pre means before, so it's saying before the destination.

What is our destination, Dave? Is it not to be glorified as Christ was glorified after His resurrection.

How do we get to that destination? By being "pre" "destined" to a plan to be conformed in the image of His Son.

It's the plan of God for all who will be saved by their own free will of choosing.

I'm sorry Brother, but you have made a serious mistake in judgement.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
With all due respect Brother Dave, take a look at the word "predestination."

"pre" "destination" pre means before, so it's saying before the destination.

What is our destination, Dave? Is it not to be glorified as Christ was glorified after His resurrection.

How do we get to that destination? By being "pre" "destined" to a plan to be conformed in the image of His Son.

It's the plan of God for all who will be saved by their own free will of choosing.

I'm sorry Brother, but you have made a serious mistake in judgement.

It's not about God choosing who will be saved or lost, but about God's specific plan of how we reach our destination.

It's His plan of redemption from before the foundation of the world.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why would you just assume that God would tell people to do something all the while knowing that it was impossible for them to do so?

...as exampled in Ro 9:

Exodus Chapter 7

2​

Thou shalt speak all that I command thee; and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

3​

And I will harden Pharaoh`s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4​

But Pharaoh will not hearken unto you, and I will lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

Are you suggesting that God is being disingenuous or to be blunt is lying?

...as exampled in Ro 9:

Romans Chapter 9

14​

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
With all due respect Brother Dave, take a look at the word "predestination."

"pre" "destination" pre means before, so it's saying before the destination.
I agree.
Now take a look at this, please:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: "
( Ephesians 1:3-11 ).

This tells me that all those who believe were predestinated to their adoption as children of God, to an inheritance, and that it was all done according to God's will...
Not our own.

In addition, we know who the "we" are by what Scripture has already revealed:

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
( Romans 8:28-30 ).

Individuals.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
It's not about God choosing who will be saved or lost, but about God's specific plan of how we reach our destination.

It's His plan of redemption from before the foundation of the world.

To further understand my 2 previous posts, bear with me.

Paul told us that the Holy Spirit is the down-payment on our salvation. We are not yet fully saved, that coming at the resurrection.

Our spirit and soul are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but this body of flesh is not saved.

We are at this stage before the resurrection 2/3 saved. At the resurrection we will be saved spirit, soul and body.

This is our destination to total and complete salvation. It is God plan of redemption that gets us there.

Ephesians 1:13-14

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

We become God's possession when we are fully purchased through His redemption plan at the resurrection.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
We become God's possession when we are fully purchased through His redemption plan at the resurrection.
God's elect are already His possession:

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:9 )

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
" ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

" What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
" ( 1 Corinthians 6:20 ).

His people were purchased at the cross, Charlie .
They do not wait to become His purchased possession.
Everything they are, need or will become is already set in stone.

We only wait to put on our new, glorified bodies and to be with our Saviour.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Matthew 23:37 - Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

Are you able to fulfill this command? If not, is God being disingenuous and lying?

All these show man has a free will
We are told to choose
Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Jos_24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Invitation for All, but Not All Accept
Mat_23:37 – “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

Rev_3:20 – “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

We can resist or even reject God’s grace
Act_7:51 – “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”

By the way you just answered you own question. "All of the verses you cited only tell us about the act of what believers do."
They have to have a free will to make choices/to act or all the choices of man have been made for them by God in which case God is the one responsible for all the sin.

Where as what you posted was a command
Mar 12:30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

What I had quoted showed that man was expected to and able to make real choices.

What you quoted was a command from God that we are not able to keep. But as always with the calvinist when they have no answer they try to deflect.

Go back and answer the question regarding what I had posted. To quote you "I asked for a specific verse that clearly shows that man has a libertarian free will." I provided them and you just tried to deflect so why not respond to what I posted.

FYI
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Which you quoted also shows that man has a free will.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
...as exampled in Ro 9:

Exodus Chapter 7

2​

Thou shalt speak all that I command thee; and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

3​

And I will harden Pharaoh`s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4​

But Pharaoh will not hearken unto you, and I will lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.



...as exampled in Ro 9:

Romans Chapter 9

14​

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Try to stay with the discussion KY. It is rather obvious you can not respond to the actual verses that I posted as they do not fit your theology.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Try to stay with the discussion KY. It is rather obvious you can not respond to the actual verses that I posted as they do not fit your theology.

I responded precisely to your shallow questioning, and you know I did. This is just more of your dishonesty brought out for all to see.
 
All these show man has a free will

No they don't. They simply tell us that God commands people to do good. You have failed to provide a verse that addresses fallen man's ability to either choose good or evil. I'll help you out and provide a verse that does tells us that man can choose and only chooses evil.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That one was for free. I'll leave the rest for you to find.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
God's elect are already His possession:

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:9 )

" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
" ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

" What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
" ( 1 Corinthians 6:20 ).

His people were purchased at the cross, Charlie .
They do not wait to become His purchased possession.
Everything they are, need or will become is already set in stone.

We only wait to put on our new, glorified bodies and to be with our Saviour.

Yes, we were most certainly bought with a price, a huge price, the Blood of our Lord and Saviour. We most certainly are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

But you know as well as I that we are a work in progress, we have not reached our "destination" and we are not the finished product promised by God.

Everything God does for us in His redemptive work is a legal act carried out under a code of Laws created by God Himself. In this life He is conforming us into the image of Christ, slowly and carefully to reach the position where He has placed us in Christ. Although in this body of sin we are unable to reach that position where He has placed us. We are a work in progress until we go to the grave and leave this body of sin behind.

Our salvation is a legal act from beginning to end. It's a personal, individual business deal with you being presented the Gospel of Christ, accepting it, and God putting you under contract with a down-payment of the Holy Spirit.

In this life we are under contract with the deal made between you and God. Every business deal under contract has contingencies, unseen conditions that must be met for the deal to go through. If those contingencies are not met the deal could fall through and not take place.

Here is God's contingency! The condition that must be met for the deal to go through.

Hebrews 3:14
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

We must hold our faith to the end of this life while we are under contract, if not, the deal is off!!!

If we do keep that faith to the end and go to the grave with that faith secure in Christ, the contract is finalized the full purchase takes place with contingencies met and we wait for the promise of our destination to be fulfilled in the resurrection.

Then we are saved, spirit, soul, body, and glorified. We have reached our "destination" that was pre-planned for us before the foundation of the world.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Our salvation is a legal act from beginning to end. It's a personal, individual business deal with you being presented the Gospel of Christ, accepting it, and God putting you under contract with a down-payment of the Holy Spirit.

In this life we are under contract with the deal made between you and God. Every business deal under contract has contingencies, unseen conditions that must be met for the deal to go through. If those contingencies are not met the deal could fall through and not take place.

Here is God's contingency! The condition that must be met for the deal to go through.

Hebrews 3:14
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

We must hold our faith to the end of this life while we are under contract, if not, the deal is off!!!

If we do keep that faith to the end and go to the grave with that faith secure in Christ, the contract is finalized the full purchase takes place with contingencies met and we wait for the promise of our destination to be fulfilled in the resurrection.

Then we are saved, spirit, soul, body, and glorified. We have reached our "destination" that was pre-planned for us before the foundation of the world.
No, Charlie.
Salvation is not a market deal where we "do our part" and God does the rest.

Salvation and eternal life are not rewards to be earned by our faithfulness, neither do God's people "accept Christ" as part of an "offer" of salvation.
My friend, someone has sold you a bill of goods that is focused on works, and not God's gifts of grace.
He never told His children that His work of salvation depends in any way, upon what they do.
But He does tell them what they will do, if they are saved and if they are His elect from before the world began:

They will endure to the end.

May God bless you, sir, and may He one day open your eyes to the truth.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
No, Charlie.
Salvation is not a market deal where we "do our part" and God does the rest.

Salvation and eternal life are not rewards to be earned by our faithfulness, neither do God's people "accept Christ" as part of an "offer" of salvation.
My friend, someone has sold you a bill of goods that is focused on works, and not God's gifts of grace.
He never told His children that His work of salvation depends in any way, upon what they do.
But He does tell them what they will do, if they are saved and if they are His elect from before the world began:

They will endure to the end.

May God bless you, sir, and may He one day open your eyes to the truth.

Brother Dave, I have read many of your posts, and I have to say you have my utmost respect.

You are indeed my Brother in Christ regardless of our differences.

I'm sorry we see this differently, I truly am!

God bless you, My Brother!
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I responded precisely to your shallow questioning, and you know I did. This is just more of your dishonesty brought out for all to see.

KY you have not responded to what is actually the discussion.
Go back and read from at least post #34 then you might be able to make some valid comments.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No they don't. They simply tell us that God commands people to do good. You have failed to provide a verse that addresses fallen man's ability to either choose good or evil. I'll help you out and provide a verse that does tells us that man can choose and only chooses evil.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That one was for free. I'll leave the rest for you to find.

From what I have seen on this board what we can expect from most calvinist's is the complete lack of ability to read and understand scripture. Or more likely is the fact that they just refuse to accept any scripture that does not fit their philosophical view.

If you think those verses that I posted do not show free will then prove it with those verses.

Even the verse you provided does not help your case.
God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation.
In case your not sure how the bible presents the means of salvation it's hear the gospel believe the gospel be saved by the grace of God through faith in Him.

God calls lost sinners
1] through creation Rom_1:20
2] the conviction of the Holy Spirit Joh_16:8-9
3] the gospel message Rom_1:16
4] observing Christians lives 1Pe_2:12
 
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