Regimentation

[Silverhair]

Jesus limited the offer to all that are weary and heavy laden. I only repeated what Jesus said @Silverhair

I know you don’t understand, or if you do, you cannot accept it as truth.

No further need to engage in this

Peace to you

I quoted you @canadyjd and now you want to say you did not say it. Why is that?

I know what Christ said but you added your own comment which fits your philosophy. But does not fit with the biblical text.

You must think that only your so called elect are weary and heavy laden. You have a strange way of understanding the Word of God.

 

[canadyjd]

You must think that only your so called elect are weary and heavy laden….

Yes, now you accurately state my beliefs for the first time.

All those chosen by God will be drawn by God Holy Spirit, convicted of their sin and need for a Savior… respond by belief in the truth of Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He has done, and faith into salvation.

They are the ones weary and heavy laden.

In the verses following Matthew 11:26, Jesus will say no one knows the Father, but the Son and those the Father CHOSES to reveal Himself to.

I know you will never agree, but at least you have accurately stated my beliefs.

Thank You Lord Jesus!!!!

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, now you accurately state my beliefs for the first time.

All those chosen by God will be drawn by God Holy Spirit, convicted of their sin and need for a Savior… respond by belief in the truth of Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He has done, and faith into salvation.

They are the ones weary and heavy laden.

In the verses following Matthew 11:26, Jesus will say no one knows the Father, but the Son and those the Father CHOSES to reveal Himself to.

I know you will never agree, but at least you have accurately stated my beliefs.

Thank You Lord Jesus!!!!

Peace to you

Those may be your beliefs but that is not what the bible actually says.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Not some men as you would have it but all men.

Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Are you suggesting that only your so called "elect" will be convicted of their sin?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Heb_7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
God says the gospel can draw all people do you not agree?

Joh_8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."
Joh_9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
Pick either of these verses as the say the same thing, Christ is the light for all the world not for just your so called chosen ones.

When we ask for whom did Christ die, the bible gives uis a clear answer.
The bible says He was the propitiation for the whole world {1 John 2:2}, that He was the ransom for all {1 Timothy 2:6}, that He tasted death for every man {Hebrews 2:9}, that He died for the ungodly {Romans 5:6}, for sinners {Romans 5:8}.


So the question for you is,
Those may be your beliefs but the question is why?
The bible contradicts your beliefs so perhaps you should rethink what you believe.

 

[canadyjd]

I base everything I believe on scripture.

We simply disagree on how to interpret the passages.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I base everything I believe on scripture.

We simply disagree on how to interpret the passages.

Peace to you

Well I do not have to run them through a calvinist/reformed filter to see what the text says.

My interpretation comes from reading the text as the Holy Spirit inspired it.

So yes we will continue to disagree but need not be disagreeable.

 

[David Lamb]

Did you not see these words

"Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all."
So @canadyjd is limiting who are to be considered as "weary and heavy laden" that is your limited few.

Yes I did see those words. No mention of a few. As I said before, your words on this point and Candyjd's were very similar: You: "So it would seem that God actually wants all those that labor and are heavy laden to come to Him." Candyjd: "Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

One of the reasons we humans like freedom is we do not like regimentation. This is especially true of non-Reformed Baptists.

Regimentation refers to enforced uniformity by governing authorities, especially based on creeds such as Marxist doctrine. In the religious world, we have "top down" organizations, such as Catholic or Calvinist, and we have "bottom up" organizations such as autonomous baptist churches.

And of course the Bible teaches it is better to be free than slave. Also, many believe freedom provides the best way forward due to the utility of individual or independent group innovation. OTOH, about 20% of people think they know best, and ought to tell everyone else what to do.

Which brings us to the two views of Christ's gospel, one being God offers the opportunity of salvation to all, and the other being God already has decided such that if you are not "in" there is no opportunity to alter your damnation. Of course the second one reflects regimentation, a relic of the dark ages.

So the issue before us, is what does the Bible actually say?

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD anointed me
To bring good news to the humble;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim release to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation [humanity] was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope hat the creation [humanity] itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

1 Corinthians 10:29
Now by “conscience” I do not mean your own, but the other person's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?

Galatians 2:4
Yet it was a concern because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy on our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:13
For you were called to freedom, brothers [siblings]; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love.

1 Peter 2:16
Act as free people, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bond-servants of God.

I think you are right that people like to think that they are autonomous. That is why they will always chafe against the Gospel. "And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil." "We will not have this man to reign over us." I don't know how it is in America, but at many funerals over here you see the coffin being shuffled off into the fire to the sound of Frank Sinatra singing, "I did it my way!"
The Lord Jesus said, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free ........ Therefore if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed.' John 10:31-32, 36. Note that it is the Son who will make us free; we cannot free ourselves. We have to humble ourselves and that is what upset many of those who had initially believed in our Lord (John 10:30-31), and made them ready to stone Him (v.59).But what does it mean to be made 'free indeed'? How can we reconcile this with Romans 6:16-18? 'Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves to obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.'

So, Gal. 5:1 notwithstanding, we are slaves none the less. If we are not the slaves of Christ, we are the slaves of Satan. We must take Christ's yoke upon ourselves (Matt. 11:29), and obey His commandments ( John 14:15). But if we are truly His, we will not chafe under His authority. Instead of saying, "We will not have this Man to reign over us," We say instead, 'His commandments are not grievous.' We are like the freed slave in Deut. 15:16-17. 'And if it happens that he says to you, "I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house,.... then you shall take an awl and thrust it through [or 'pierce'] his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever.' So it is that we read in Psalm 40:6-8, 'Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; but my ears you have opened [or 'pierced']. Burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not require. Then I said, "Behold I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart.'

So we are indeed slaves or bondservants to the Lord Jesus Christ, but His service is our delight, and His yoke, to those who have been born anew is perfect freedom.

 

[Van]

I think you are right that people like to think that they are autonomous. That is why they will always chafe against the Gospel. "And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil." "We will not have this man to reign over us." I don't know how it is in America, but at many funerals over here you see the coffin being shuffled off into the fire to the sound of Frank Sinatra singing, "I did it my way!"
The Lord Jesus said, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free ........ Therefore if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed.' John 10:31-32, 36. Note that it is the Son who will make us free; we cannot free ourselves. We have to humble ourselves and that is what upset many of those who had initially believed in our Lord (John 10:30-31), and made them ready to stone Him (v.59).But what does it mean to be made 'free indeed'? How can we reconcile this with Romans 6:16-18? 'Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves to obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.'

So, Gal. 5:1 notwithstanding, we are slaves none the less. If we are not the slaves of Christ, we are the slaves of Satan. We must take Christ's yoke upon ourselves (Matt. 11:29), and obey His commandments ( John 14:15). But if we are truly His, we will not chafe under His authority. Instead of saying, "We will not have this Man to reign over us," We say instead, 'His commandments are not grievous.' We are like the freed slave in Deut. 15:16-17. 'And if it happens that he says to you, "I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house,.... then you shall take an awl and thrust it through [or 'pierce'] his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever.' So it is that we read in Psalm 40:6-8, 'Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; but my ears you have opened [or 'pierced']. Burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not require. Then I said, "Behold I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart.'

So we are indeed slaves or bondservants to the Lord Jesus Christ, but His service is our delight, and His yoke, to those who have been born anew is perfect freedom.

1) I did not say people like to think they are autonomous, I said "such as autonomous baptist churches." But I agree, many, perhaps most people, believe they are autonomous to some degree. I do not think many people think they are fully autonomous, since we all have constraints, whether limited intellectual capability, or well ingrained habits of sin, or the impact of circumstances beyond our control.

2) Next the usual false claim that people love darkness, means all people at all times never seek the light. Absurd nonsense.

3) No one said or suggested people set themselves free by any action including trusting in Christ.

4) To be free indeed means to be set free from the involuntary servitude of slavery to sin with its consequence of death. Thus our "slavery" to Christ actually refers to our voluntary servitude to Christ, i.e. we are bond-servants.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To be free indeed means to be set free from the involuntary servitude of slavery to sin with its consequence of death. Thus our "slavery" to Christ actually refers to our voluntary servitude to Christ, i.e. we are bond-servants.

I suppose everyone does realise that when Simeon prays, "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace" (Luke 2:29) and when Paul describes himself as a 'servant of Jesus Christ' (Rom. 1:1 etc.), they are both using the Greek word doulos which means 'slave' in, say, 1 Cor 7:21-22, Philemon 16 and, of course, Romans 6:16-18. The basic meaning of doulos is 'slave.' It is the English translations that split the meaning according to what they think is appropriate: 'slave,' 'servant' or 'bondservant.'

 

[Silverhair]

Yes I did see those words. No mention of a few. As I said before, your words on this point and Candyjd's were very similar: You: "So it would seem that God actually wants all those that labor and are heavy laden to come to Him." Candyjd: "Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden."

@David Lamb why are you equivocating? Here is Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."
That is God reaching out to all people to come to Him just as we see in John 12:32

What did @canadyjd post in post #13
"Again, the offer is to all who are weary and heavy laden…. Not to all."

@canadyjd is adding his own view of a limited call to salvation/rest.

That is a calvinist/reformed view it is not the biblical view.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My own view is that the verse is a call to all people.
However, the Bible teaches that men and women will not come unless the Spirit opens their hearts to do so. For example, John 5:40. "But you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." It is not that God prevents them from coming; it is because they will not come because of their wicked, unbelieving hearts.

 

[Silverhair]

My own view is that the verse is a call to all people.
However, the Bible teaches that men and women will not come unless the Spirit opens their hearts to do so. For example, John 5:40. "But you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." It is not that God prevents them from coming; it is because they will not come because of their wicked, unbelieving hearts.

But then we see that the gospel is the message of salvation that can be heard and believed onto salvation.
Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And as Paul wrote
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The bible teaches that man can respond to the gospel message via their God given free will. If they do not have that ability from God then He has condemned all those He did not pick B4 creation according to the C/R view.

Even the verse you quoted shows free will, remember that Christ was speaking to Jews that had the OT which pointed to Him and they had seen or heard of the miracles that He had done.
So what can we understand from Christ's words
1, God had not made them unwilling, they had a FREE WILL, to ACCEPT or REJECT Jesus Christ.
And, 2, that eternal life was OFFERED to and POSSIBLE for these disbelieving Jews if the came to Him.

This is reinforced later in John's letter
John in John 20:31 writes
1, these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and 2, that believing you may have life in His name.

So while some will freely reject Christ that does not preclude others from freely trusting in Him.

 

[canadyjd]

…….

So while some will freely reject Christ that does not preclude others from freely trusting in Him.

What is the difference within the person who believes and the person who rejects?

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

What is the difference within the person who believes and the person who rejects?

Peace to you

One is saved the other is lost.

They both had the God given free will with which to choose to trust in or reject God.

 

[canadyjd]

One is saved the other is lost.

They both had the God given free will with which to choose to trust in or reject God.

Before one was saved, they were both lost.

What was different about the one that used his “free will” to trust in God from the one that rejected God?

Why did the one accept?

Why did the other reject?

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Before one was saved, they were both lost.

What was different about the one that used his “free will” to trust in God from the one that rejected God?

Why did the one accept?

Why did the other reject?

Peace to you

The person heard the gospel message and believed or he could have been drawn to God by other means like creation or the conviction of sin. But whatever the means that God used in the end the person had to make the choice to believe or reject God.

It is the same as we make our choices in everyday life. We evaluate the information we have and make what we consider the best choice.

Why do you think they would accept or reject it?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

One is saved the other is lost.They both had the God given free will with which to choose to trust in or reject God.

Did I, when I was dead in trespasses and sins, have free will to choose life in Christ?

 

[Silverhair]

Did I, when I was dead in trespasses and sins, have free will to choose life in Christ?

To put this in simple terms YES

Being dead in sin does not mean unable to reason.

 

[canadyjd]

…

Why do you think they would accept or reject it?

God chose one for salvation and God made it happen. The other was not chosen and was left to his own desires.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

God chose one for salvation and God made it happen. The other was not chosen and was left to his own desires.

Peace to you

Not biblical but you seem comfortable with that.