Why are So many Accepting the Theology of NT Wright here?

[Charlie24]

Oh puh-leeze. I'm doing something that you and all these other parrots of their dogma are not doing, I'm 'playing' with what's actually written.

No Ky, with the mindset of works you have, you're in serious trouble, my friend!

I'm trying to help you!

 

[kyredneck]

Bear with me Ky, there is no conversation more important that this one!

Puh-leeze, spare me your melodrama. Once again, parrot:

The 'works' to which James is referring:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the very same works by which we're all going to be judged in that day of judgement:

4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

There's absolutely no mention of our faith at this judgment, let alone our 'faith alone'.

This 'justification' is before Christ Himself, not before men.

 

[kyredneck]

No Ky, with the mindset of works you have, you're in serious trouble, my friend!

You're in serious trouble if you are not a doer/fulfiller of the law as Paul. Christ. and James describes.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justifie: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

Sir, you are misusing scripture. In these verses, Paul is trying to tell us that if you are going to attempt to be a “doer of the law”, or rather, one who will attempt to be justified by the law, you had better do a perfect job of it.

 

[kyredneck]

Paul was trying to tell us that if you are going to attempt to be a “doer of the law”, or rather, one who will attempt to be justified by the law, they had better do a perfect job of it.

Egad. nothing could be farther from the truth. parrot. These are 'doers of the law' because the law is written in their hearts. A New Covenant promise.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

These are 'doers of the law' because the law is written in their hearts.

I agree that the law is written on their hearts.

However, that’s not Paul’s point here.

 

[Charlie24]

Puh-leeze, spare me your melodrama. Once again, parrot:

Ok, Ky, I'll leave you alone after this.

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Any work whatsoever a man credits for his salvation is boasting that he helped save himself.

God will not accept it, you will not enter into His rest.

 

[kyredneck]

However, that’s not Paul’s point here.

Wrong. That is precisely his point.

It never ceases to amaze me how you 'faith aloners' freak out over the slightest mention of works/law in our salvation.

Good works should come to us as naturally as a duck to water.

 

[kyredneck]

Ok, Ky, I'll leave you alone after this.

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What Eph 2:8 says:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

What Eph 2:8 does NOT say:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[Charlie24]

What Eph 2:8 says:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

What Eph 2:8 does NOT say:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Only 2 ways for a man to consider himself saved.

Grace through Faith or works!

I've already shown you that works cancels out grace, and grace cancels out works.

"He who has an ear let him hear."

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

It never ceases to amaze me how you 'faith aloners' freak out over the slightest mention of works/law in our salvation.

You’re off your rocker, Gilligan.

Good works should come to us as naturally as a duck to water.

I agree, so how does that make me a “faith aloner”? It doesn’t.

 

[kyredneck]

I've already shown you that works cancels out grace, and grace cancels out works.

You've shown me nothing except that you're a parrot of what you've been taught, and not what the scriptures actually say.

Grace is God equipping us with what we need to be pleasing to Him. i.e.. born of the Spirit with the law written in our hearts, our faith is not of ourselves, it is literally a fruit of the Spirit, a gift of God. It's not giving us a 'choice' to decide whether we want to go to heaven or not. Faith is not a choice that we make, it's a conviction of things that can't be discerned with our natural senses.

 

[Charlie24]

You've shown me nothing except that you're a parrot of what you've been taught, not what the scripture says.

Grace is God equipping us with what we need to be pleasing to Him. i.e.. born of the Spirit with the law written in our hearts, our faith is not of ourselves. it is the gift of God. It's not giving us a 'choice' to decide whether we want to go to heaven or not.

Ok, Ky, I got it loud and clear.

God Bless, Brother!

 

[kyredneck]

so how does that make me a “faith aloner”?

My apologies if I've wrongly categorized you.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

My apologies if I've wrongly categorized you.

No worries.

To be clear, the elect of God will be "doers of the law". I'm only saying that I don't believe that is what the text is teaching here, but there are certainly other places where it does teach it.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm only saying that I don't believe that is what the text is teaching here,

The text is teaching that every child of God of circumcised heart with the law written in their heart is by nature a doer/fulfiller of the law:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

By Paul's standard, do you fulfill the law?

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

By Christ's standard, do you fulfill the law?

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

The text is teaching that every child of God of circumcised heart with the law written in their heart is by nature a doer/fulfiller of the law:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

Your first mistake is understanding this text as saying that doing the law is what justifies a person. Paul can't be talking about what you think he's talking about because a short time later he explains why.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Now if you want to say that a justified person will do the law, then we're in agreement. That isn't Paul's point here.

 

[canadyjd]

Wow,

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

I challenge anyone to cite from scripture that justification is by our faith ALONE (it doesn't exist).

All words have meaning in context. Paul uses the word “justification” differently than James.

James 2 uses the word “justification” to mean “validation”. That is, our faith is validated by our works.

When Paul speaks of “justification” in Romans, it is forensic (legal) justification in a court of law. In his case, Paul is speaking of God finding us “not guilty” because with our faith our sins are covered by Christ’s righteousness.

Additionally, Paul and James agree that our faith will produce good works. See Ephesians 1.

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Paul uses the word “justification” differently than James.

They use the same Greek word:
Strong's Concordance G1344
Original Word: δικαιόωTransliteration: dikaióōPhonetic Spelling: dik-ah-yo'-o[δικαιόω] from G1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent


The 'works' to which James is referring that justifies us:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the very same works by which we're all going to be judged in that day of judgement:

4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

This 'justification' is before Christ Himself, not a 'validation' before men. No mention of our faith.

James 2 uses the word “justification” to mean “validation”.

Prove that from scripture if you're able.

 

[kyredneck]

Your first mistake is understanding this text as saying that doing the law is what justifies a person. Paul can't be talking about what you think he's talking about because a short time later he explains why.

Your mistake is that in no way am I saying that the LETTER of the law justifies us, neither is Paul.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

Yea, what about that? You think Paul might've been going a little senile?

It's not apples and apples, one is in the spirit, the other is in the letter.

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2