I have no idea what you mean by "but scripture says that men are drawn into sin by both “their desires” and “Satan” making BOTH forces stronger than God!"
That is to vague to comment on!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
"All"
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
I have no idea what you mean by "but scripture says that men are drawn into sin by both “their desires” and “Satan” making BOTH forces stronger than God!"
That is to vague to comment on!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You have ignored what scripture says God did to Lydia.
In the parable, it was not the GUEST that chose, it was the HOST (God) who both CALLED and CHOSE.
I would address Hebrews 3:15, but what would be the point … you are ignoring what the scriptures say for your talking points.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Read the OP again. It is the entire first half of his argument (after the insults to papists and free will).
Let me know if you know of no verses that suggests that our desires draw human beings into sin.
Let me know if you know of no verses that suggests the devil, Satan or demons draw people into sin.
In all my conversations here there has been nothing about Lydia, or any parable.
I don't know, did I miss something?
Paul has written many verses on the draw, desire and effects of sin.
I fail to see your point!
Are you playing some sort of game?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Post #18 (Acts … the story of the salvation of Lydia)
Yes, as I've said before about versions, you used the ESV, I can't make heads nor tails from other translations.
I have to go to the KJV, with all the key words I know and have studied.
I seen the ESV and just ignored it.
But Ok, let me go to the KJV and I'll serve you up my take in a few minutes.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not a game, just inviting you to comment on this argument from the OP that is 100% about FREE WILL and has nothing to do with Calvinism:
"All men?" "All men," [John 12:32] to be sure. Jesus Christ is drawing them all, only there are some of them that won't come. Why? Because they are so much stronger than He is! Now, will you believe that? And yet that is the only inference. If He is drawing every child of Adam, how is it that so many thousands are drawn into hell? If He is drawing every child of Adam, how is it that they draw iniquity and wickedness, "as with a cart rope?" [Isaiah 5:18] For that is the prophet's expression, as it is positively set down. If He is drawing every child of Adam, how is it that a large majority of the human race are, "drawn away by their own lusts, and enticed?" [James 1:14] Drawn away by their own covetousness and love of money, drawn away by their own pride and evil affections, so drawn away as to be, "led captive by the devil at his will?" [2 Timothy 2:26] Now if I were a free willer, I should roundly declare that man is stronger than God. And though Christ would draw him, He cannot. That the devil is stronger than Christ. That though Christ would draw them, the devil will lead them into eternity, captive at his will. What an abominable system of infidelity this would be!
Ok, I can do that. I'll go from what you posted here.
John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
Of course, Christ being lifted up refers to the Cross.
Christ being lifted up on the Cross for the sins of man is the foundation of Christianity. It's through this means that the draw comes from the Holy Spirit, convicting of sin and righteousness. But this can't happen without the hearing of the Word of God in some form.
Remember, Paul said that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, Rom. 10:17
When the Gospel is heard and the Holy Spirit convicts, the faith to believe is there as a free gift, but only if the person responds in acceptance of that conviction. If the person does not respond favorably to the conviction, there is no faith given. Do you understand that?
A negative response to the Holy Spirit's calling is a no go, you have rejected Him.
I've seen many times a positive response to conviction and a negative response.
I think this is far enough for the moment.
If nothing else you can learn some details of what you're opposing.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
To quote Joseph Irons ""Well," say you, "if this be not the meaning, what is?" I will tell you. I think it must appear to every man's common sense that this is not the meaning. "What, then," say you, "is the meaning of drawing all men?" The term, "all men," is used in the New Testament language, generally as descriptive of men of all nations, all descriptions of men, whether Jew or Gentile, (that is the idea), whether old or young, rich or poor, all descriptions of men."
And to quote him again "I have a right to put in a word too. And I should say, "If I be lifted up, will draw all mine," (it is a very little transposition of the word from, "men," to, "mine)." "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all mine unto me." Then I know I am right; then there will be no failure."
His lack of understanding is obvious to those that are not enamored with the false doctrines of the DoG/TUILP crowd. He is letting his calvinist philosophy determine what the text says rather than trust what the text says.
While the words "all men" can be used in various ways as he said, what he did not says was what the bible actually shows, Christ will draw all to Himself.
Since the word "men" is not in the text why include it. If he knew Greek then he would have known that the word "men" was not in the text. We see that Christ said He will draw "ALL". Which is just what He does. Those that freely trust in Him will be saved those that reject Him will be lost.
As John wrote Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all {peoples} to Myself." The word "people" is not in the Greek text but is supplied for stylistic reasons and for clarity. NET
The offer of salvation is for all men. Your philosophy does not accept that so you have to read draw as drag.
But that is the error of your particular view.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"All Mine are Thine".
Jesus said He died for those God Gave Him.
They are the ones Jesus Sanctified Himself for.
"And for their sakes I Sanctify Myself,
that they also might be Sanctified through the Truth."John 17:19.
'Thought', as distinguished below, without the Aid of The Holy Spirit, or The Bible, or any Rules of Rudementary Reading, or Interpretation, such as no Scripture can contridict another Scripture, i.e., "all" vs "many".
And, obviously, the thoughts you have had about the consequences you imagine in your thoughts of Calvinist doctrine, whatever you think it might be, then they do what? Scare you.
And run you scare playing into the hands of Satan, to lock arms with him and embrace any other wild-eyed, inheriently flawed, denial of The Word of God on essentially every Doctrine it teaches, along with any number of contradictory beliefs, in any random Heresy you get as the result on a Google search.
That IS ONE WAY to form your doctrinal stance, for sure.
Of course, God Rejects your rejection of Him, in doing so, psychologically and all.
Repent.
Get on your knees with The Bible.
Ask.
Die to your flesh and it's thinking reasoning guesswork.
Right and speaking of context, the verse before happens to mention the word 'world', to add in as an axiom to any equation attempting to determine the meaning of the various other words in that passage.
Last edited:
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
- Matthew 10:22:
"All people will hate you because of me." This doesn't mean every single individual will hate believers, but that persecution for one's faith is a widespread experience.
- John 3:26:
"And all are going to him." This refers to a general trend, not that every single person was baptizing with John.
When “All” Does Not mean “Every Single One” in Romans
I will add a few extra examples in this case, since this is the disputed category.
1:8 (cf. 10:18; 16:26), …your faith is proclaimed in all the world. (Japan? The Americas?)
15:14, I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another. (Every single bit of knowledge ever known?)
16:3-4, Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. (Did every church know what Prisca and Aquila had done? In North Africa? In Parthia?)
16:15, All the churches of Christ greet you. (Paul is writing from Corinth. Did he send a note 815 miles away to Jerusalem to ask them whether they wanted to send greetings to the church in Rome?)
16:19, For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. (Every single person in the world? Or even every single Christian in the world?)
“All” obviously doesn’t always (excuse the pun) refer to every single person/thing, even when we examine “all” in the Letter to the Romans alone. Since that morning, I have now looked at enough examples to know that this pattern is true throughout the Bible.
What about “All Israel”?
So, I searched on all Israel (both words functioning together) throughout the whole Bible. Honestly, I wasn’t expecting to get 148 hits when I combined the words “all” and “Israel”! As an expression, “all Israel” appears especially in the narrative sections of the Old Testament. And, unsurprisingly, some of the references referred to every single person in Israel while others did not.
Here is one example where “all Israel” does in fact refer to every single person in Israel.
2 Sam. 8:15, So David reigned over all Israel.
But in most cases, this expression is used collectively (in a collectivist society) to indicate that many people from Israel shared in the same activity, the same attitude, the same sin, or the same fate. Here are ten clear examples where all Israel cannot mean every single person in Israel.
Joshua 7:25 (cf. 1 Kings 12:18), And all Israel stoned him with stones.
Josh. 8:24, …all Israel returned to Ai and struck it down with the edge of the sword.
1 Sam. 2:22, Now Eli was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
1 Sam. 18:16, But all Israel and Judah loved David, for he went out and came in before them.
2 Sam. 4:1, When Ish-bosheth, Saul’s son, heard that Abner had died at Hebron, his courage failed, and all Israel was dismayed.
2 Sam.16:22, Absalom went in to the concubines of his father before the eyes of all Israel.
2 Sam. 17:13, If he withdraws into a city, then all Israel will bring ropes to that city, and we shall drag it into the valley, until not even a pebble is to be found there.
1 Kings 14:18, And all Israel buried him and mourned for him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by his servant Ahijah the prophet.
1 Chron. 15:28, So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD ...
Dan. 9:11, All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice.
What can we take away from this? Words mean what they mean because of how they are used. We should not impose a modernistic insistence upon precision when we engage in linguistic analysis. It is an exegetical fallacy to superimpose “every single person/thing” upon every instance that the word “all” appears in the Bible.
New thread: JESUS' Atonement's Efficiency and Sufficiency are Infinite,
but both are Limited in thei Divine Design by the Covenant of Redemption
(Hebrews 13:20).
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"I Will draw all men to Me"; which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about Him, when on the cross, some for Him, and others against Him, some to bewail Him, and others to reproach Him;
"but rather of the gathering of the Elect to Him, and in Him, as their Head and Representative, when He was Crucified for them; as well as the collection of them, through the ministry of the Apostles, and of their being Brought to believe on Him for Eternal Life and Salvation: and this drawing of them to Him, in consequence of His death, supposes that they are at a distance from Him, that they have a want of power, and will, to come to Him, and from the Efficacious Grace of God to Bring them,
"and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or Enabled to Come to Him, and believe in Him. There were many of the Jews who would not, and did not come to Him for Life; and who instead of being drawn to Him in this sense, when Lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him; moreover, in the preceding verse, "a world" is spoken of, whose Judgment, or Condemnation, was now Come;
"and besides, there was at this time a multitude of souls in Hell, who could not, nor never will be, drawn to Christ;
"and a greater number still there will be at the Last Day, who, instead of drawing to Him in this Gracious Way and Manner, Will be Bid to Depart from Him, as having been workers of iniquity.
"Christ died indeed for all men who are drawn unto Him;
but this is not true of all men, that are, were, or shall be in the world.
"Add to this, that the word "men" is not in the text, it is only "all":
"Beza's most ancient copy, and some others, and the Vulgate Latin version read "all things"; and by "all" are meant, all the elect of God, all the children of God, "that were scattered abroad"; the Persic version reads, "I will draw my friends to me";
The use by God of The Word 'all' in this verse Divinely "Designs some of all sorts of men, of every state, condition, age, sex, and nation, Gentiles as well as Jews, and especially the former; which agrees with the Ancient Prophecy, Genesis 49:10, and with the context, and the occasion of the words, which was the desire of the Greeks, that were come to the feast, to see Jesus; and which was a specimen of the large numbers of them, that should be drawn to Christ, through the preaching of the Gospel, after His death:...
"Christ's cross is the Standard, His Love is the Banner, and He Himself is the Ensign, which draw souls to Himself, and Engage them to enlist themselves under Him, and become His volunteers in the Day of His Power; see Isaiah 11:10."
Refe4ence: John 12 Gill's Exposition
You, too? Good shot, atpollard! Perspicatious!
Tenchi
Active Member
??? A mere assertion, by itself, is not a successful argument for itself. You don't seem to understand this...
See? Just more imagined stories about another person. Again, how do actually see those you constantly psycho-analyze this way? You trap yourself in your own imaginings about them, keeping yourself from ever really knowing them behind a wall of these odd stories that you tell yourself about them. Don't you want to actually know others, rather than just the weird caricatures of them that you imagine? Perhaps, though, that's giving to others more freedom than you feel secure in them having...
Ah, yes. The rhetoric of the propagandist: Extreme. Pejorative. False. But very declarative.
Goodness! You don't say! Well, I'm convinced. Your frantic, ugly rhetoric has persuaded me. There's just nothing quite like the sort of obnoxious stuff you've put forward to bring others 'round to your own viewpoint, eh? I certainly don't want some bloviating stranger online to think I'm wild-eyed denier of God's word, scooping up very random heresy Google offers to me! Horrible! What would I have done without your unpleasant, propagandist posts? It hardly bears thinking on!
Of course. Immediately. You've commanded and I shall obey! All I needed to see the light was your rude nonsense. Marvellous.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Read:
"It is unequivocally clear from the Words of Christ in the above text and context that there is a people for whom He did not and would not Pray. John seventeen (17) is the Priestly or Mediatorial Prayer of Jesus whereby He Intercedes for the "many" whom the Father had Given Him in the Covenant of Eternal Redemption (Vs. 2).
"In His sinless humanity or as the perfect man, Jesus Prayed for His enemies, but all the functions of His Mediatorial Office were restricted to only those whom He Substitutively Represented on the cross.
"Speaking of His Redemptive Blood, Christ said:
Jesus Blood, "...is Shed for many for the Remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28).
"Quantitatively, the "many" whose sins Jesus Bore in His body on the tree is not the Adamic family,
and only by forcing the term ("many") and obliterating its restrictive significance
can it be made to accommodate the general atonement theory.
"Christ said, "...The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). However, He did not say they could not be wrested, twisted, or distorted. Peter said, the "unlearned and unstable" wrest the scriptures to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16).
"The natural man, to whom all scripture is utter foolishness (I Corinthians 2:14), has not only perverted God's Word in making the Sacrificial Blood of Christ to be the indiscriminate offering for all mankind, but from his desperately wicked heart he has compounded his foolishness by teaching that mans' Eternal Destiny is determined by his own volitional 'power'.
"The salvational efficacy theory of the will of fallen man is exceedingly pleasing to his intellectual palate, yea, it is his most relished doctrine, but in the end it will be more bitter than gall, and he will in vain try to spew it out of his mouth. "Bread of deceit is sweet to a man, but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel" (Proverbs 20:17).
"The unrestricted redemptionists are long on believeism, but are fatally short on Bible.
"Their error is Satan's dye by which he attempts to bedim the color of God's Plenary and Inspired Fabric of Truth, and thereby keep his dupes confused and use them to confound others and compound their own guilt.
"Yet, the word of God remains untainted, and that inerrent and immutable word, says:
"...The Good Shepherd Giveth His Life for the sheep" (John 10:11).
"Metephorically speaking, Christ died for His sheep and for His wheat.
"Realistically speaking, Christ died for His "many sons".
"Goats never become sheep, tares never become wheat, and the children of the devil never become the children of God (John 8:44; 10:11; Heb. 2:10).
"Christ said to the self salvationists of His day: "Ye believe not because ye are not of My sheep" (John 10:26).
"They were perfectly content with their supposed scheme of redemption, and Christ knowing the irreconcilable and Absolute Depravity of their hearts said unto them: "Ye will not Come to Me that ye might have Life" (John 5:40)
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
I just say that because otherwise you've tried to arrive at His Thoughts, which are above your thoughts, by thinking, and giving thought and other such flesh nonsense which profits nothing, as you continually prove to prove, thoughtfully, I might add, for no reason that will do anybody any good, however.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The fact you ignore scripture by adding your own special twist to it is telling.
Your more concerned with supporting that philosophy than you are with believing the word of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You mean like Elder O. B. Mink tried to do.
Twisting scripture and saying that is what God really meant is not a good idea but you seem to be comfortable with that.