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The Fight Against Free-Will Works Religion

Charlie24

Active Member
Pay attention, Van. If you can't grasp the free will in these verses and how the Holy Spirit works to enlighten man of the Gospel, then I'll be happy to explain it in detail from these verse.

Rom. 10:14-17

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Let me add this, this is how the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to penetrate the cold hard heart of depraved man.

Heb. 4:12

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Christ told us He would send the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) to convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement.

This is how the Holy Spirit does it when you and I present the Gospel.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Let me add this, this is how the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to penetrate the cold hard heart of depraved man.

Heb. 4:12

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Christ told us He would send the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) to convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement.

This is how the Holy Spirit does it when you and I present the Gospel.

Totally depraved man cannot call on God, as Paul said.

Totally depraved man cannot believe in God without hearing from God, as Paul said.

Totally depraved man can only be enlightened to his need for a Saviour by hearing the Word of God.

Then the Holy Spirit takes it from there, piercing the heart, soul, and spirit of man with the truth.

Then man is faced with the choice to accept that calling or reject it.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Free will is exercised by man when the barrier of total depravity is broken by the Holy Spirit at the hearing of God's Word.

As I've repeatedly said, there is example after example found in Scripture.

I'm still in the deciding mode as to whether the Calvinists can't understand this and apply it, or they don't want to understand it.

The calvinist actually, by their own philosophy, can not make that choice as that would require a free will which they keep telling us man does not have.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Eve was deceived, and Adam failed to stop her.

1 Tim. 2:14

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Eve was deceived into sin, but Adam was not deceived, he committed the sin willingly, he was not fooled by Satan.

Paul tells us in Rom. 5:14,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Adam is the one responsible for the transgression. Eve had an excuse by being deceived, but Adam seen through Satan's deception, and willingly disobeyed God.

Eve's excuse will not hold water with God though. She is guilty, but not as guilty as Adam.

Adam was a type of Christ, Christ is called the Last Adam, meaning Christ came to undo what Adam had done in bringing sin into the world.

Adam is the fountainhead of willingly sinning against God, we have all followed in his footsteps.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
1 Tim. 2:14

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Eve was deceived into sin, but Adam was not deceived, he committed the sin willingly, he was not fooled by Satan.

Paul tells us in Rom. 5:14,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Adam is the one responsible for the transgression. Eve had an excuse by being deceived, but Adam seen through Satan's deception, and willingly disobeyed God.

Eve's excuse will not hold water with God though. She is guilty, but not as guilty as Adam.

Adam was a type of Christ, Christ is called the Last Adam, meaning Christ came to undo what Adam had done in bringing sin into the world.

Adam is the fountainhead of willingly sinning against God, we have all followed in his footsteps.

Someone will say, sin is sin, they both sinned and are equally guilty. That is not correct!

When Christ stood at His trial speaking of who was guilty of bringing Him before Pilate, He said,

John 19:11

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

Christ teaches us here there are degrees of sin. And if degrees of sin, there must be degrees of punishment.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
1 Tim. 2:14

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Eve was deceived into sin, but Adam was not deceived, he committed the sin willingly, he was not fooled by Satan.

Paul tells us in Rom. 5:14,

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Adam is the one responsible for the transgression. Eve had an excuse by being deceived, but Adam seen through Satan's deception, and willingly disobeyed God.

Eve's excuse will not hold water with God though. She is guilty, but not as guilty as Adam.

Adam was a type of Christ, Christ is called the Last Adam, meaning Christ came to undo what Adam had done in bringing sin into the world.

Adam is the fountainhead of willingly sinning against God, we have all followed in his footsteps.
God being eternally infinitely good.
Adam and Eve being made only to be very good, was a limited goodness, not infinite.

Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Pay attention, Van. If you can't grasp the free will in these verses and how the Holy Spirit works to enlighten man of the Gospel, then I'll be happy to explain it in detail from these verse.

Rom. 10:14-17

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
I have no idea why Charlie 24 posted this insult. This passage supports limited spiritual ability, not free will to believe everything imaginable.

Are we free to believe what we have not heard? Nope. We operate within the purview allowed by God. If He chose to harden our heart, we could not believe. The use of your term (free will) actually supports false doctrine. Stick with the accurate term, "Limited Spiritual Ability" which refers to being able to believe spiritual milk provided the lost person's heart has not been hardened, such that they are open to gospel and are exposed to the gospel.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
I have no idea why Charlie 24 posted this insult. This passage supports limited spiritual ability, not free will to believe everything imaginable.

Are we free to believe what we have not heard? Nope. We operate within the purview allowed by God. If He chose to harden our heart, we could not believe. The use of your term (free will) actually supports false doctrine. Stick with the accurate term, "Limited Spiritual Ability" which refers to being able to believe spiritual milk provided the lost person's heart has not been hardened, such that they are open to gospel and are exposed to the gospel.

I totally, completely, 100% disagree with everything you've said here! But that's nothing new with us.

Where you see insult, I see direction to attention of something important being said.

We simply cannot agree on anything, Van!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I totally, completely, 100% disagree with everything you've said here! But that's nothing new with us.

Where you see insult, I see direction to attention of something important being said.

We simply cannot agree on anything, Van!
The concept that two bible students cannot agree on anything is provincial nonsense.

Here is the insult, "If you can't grasp the free will in these verses..." I could not grasp the free will because free will was not in the verses.

Here again, The use of your term (free will) actually supports false doctrine. Stick with the accurate term, "Limited Spiritual Ability" which refers to being able to believe spiritual milk, provided the lost person's heart has not been hardened, such that they are open to the gospel and are exposed to the gospel.

Underneath our differing views is false doctrine.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
The concept that two bible students cannot agree on anything is provincial nonsense.

Here is the insult, "If you can't grasp the free will in these verses..." I could not grasp the free will because free will was not in the verses.

Here again, The use of your term (free will) actually supports false doctrine. Stick with the accurate term, "Limited Spiritual Ability" which refers to being able to believe spiritual milk, provided the lost person's heart has not been hardened, such that they are open to the gospel and are exposed to the gospel.

Underneath our differing views is false doctrine.

Ok, then I need to point it out for you. The free will in the original Scripture I posted, Rom. 10:14-17, is in vs. 16.

Rom. 10:16

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Paul is referring to Israel not obeying the Gospel when they heard it. They rejected the Gospel!

They chose not to believe the Gospel, that is the power of free will that God respects, to accept or reject it when it's heard.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ok, then I need to point it out for you. The free will in the original Scripture I posted, Rom. 10:14-17, is in vs. 16.

Rom. 10:16

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Paul is referring to Israel not obeying the Gospel when they heard it. They rejected the Gospel!

They chose not to believe the Gospel, that is the power of free will that God respects, to accept or reject it when it's heard.
Good point, if you define the term free will as having the ability to reject God, such as not obeying the gospel. However, the orthodox view contrasts "Predestination" with "Free Will." The Calvinist view is the lost have no ability to trust in Christ and are therefore predestined to Hades and Gehenna, but those individuals chosen before creation will be enabled and compelled to trust in Christ because they were predestined to Heaven.

Both sides of that dichotomy agree that the lost have the ability to choose to sin, but they do not agree with the lost having the natural ability to choose to trust in Christ.

The bottom line is simply that the lost have limited spiritual ability, able to seek God and trust in Christ because of their ability to hear and understand spiritual milk, unless they (1) have been hardened or (2) have not been exposed to the gospel, or (3) have closed their minds to the gospel due to believing some other gospel is true. Additionally, the lost have no ability to understand spiritual solid food. Thus the only accurate term is "Limited Spiritual Ability."
 

Charlie24

Active Member
Good point, if you define the term free will as having the ability to reject God, such as not obeying the gospel. However, the orthodox view contrasts "Predestination" with "Free Will." The Calvinist view is the lost have no ability to trust in Christ and are therefore predestined to Hades and Gehenna, but those individuals chosen before creation will be enabled and compelled to trust in Christ because they were predestined to Heaven.

Both sides of that dichotomy agree that the lost have the ability to choose to sin, but they do not agree with the lost having the natural ability to choose to trust in Christ.

The bottom line is simply that the lost have limited spiritual ability, able to seek God and trust in Christ because of their ability to hear and understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food unless they (1) have been hardened or (2) have not been exposed to the gospel, or (3) have closed their minds to the gospel due to believing some other gospel is true. Thus the only accurate term is "Limited Spiritual Ability."

But Van, those you are saying that "have closed their minds to the Gospel/ been hardened" are the one who have rejected the Gospel when they heard it.

We are right back on the doorstep of free will!
 

Charlie24

Active Member
But Van, those you are saying that "have closed their minds to the Gospel/ been hardened" are the one who have rejected the Gospel when they heard it.

We are right back on the doorstep of free will!

Maybe this will help you understand.

Heb. 4:2

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

This is the same situation where the OT saints heard the Gospel preached just as we have and chose not to believe it.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Charlie24 said:
But Van, those you are saying that "have closed their minds to the Gospel/ been hardened" are the one who have rejected the Gospel when they heard it.
We are right back on the doorstep of free will!
Maybe this will help you understand.

Heb. 4:2

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

This is the same situation where the OT saints heard the Gospel preached just as we have and chose not to believe it.
1) Having a closed mind is not the same has having been hardened!

2) You said we cannot agree on anything, that means you have closed your mind to anything I say. That does not mean someone else might not enlighten you.

3) The Lost are not free to believe if their heart has been hardened.

4) What does the phrase"mixed with faith in them" mean? You did not say. The idea is simply to place faith in the gospel, and so if you hear, understand and do not trust or fully trust in the gospel, it does not benefit you. This is like someone who is not open or fully open to embracing the Good News. But they were not like Soil #1 of Matthew 13, for they heard the gospel. Similarly, it is like those to hear but do not learn from the Father (John 6:45).

5) Limited Spiritual Ability refers to the correct and accurate biblical doctrine concerning "natural people," non-indwelt people.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
1) Having a closed mind is not the same has having been hardened!

2) You said we cannot agree on anything, that means you have closed your mind to anything I say. That does not mean someone else might not enlighten you.

3) The Lost are not free to believe if their heart has been hardened.

4) What does the phrase"mixed with faith in them" mean? You did not say. The idea is simply to place faith in the gospel, and so if you hear, understand and do not trust or fully trust in the gospel, it does not benefit you. This is like someone who is not open or fully open to embracing the Good News. But they were not like Soil #1 of Matthew 13, for they heard the gospel. Similarly, it is like those to hear but do not learn from the Father (John 6:45).

5) Limited Spiritual Ability refers to the correct and accurate biblical doctrine concerning "natural people," non-indwelt people.

Oh boy, Van, you're a funny guy.

Have a great day, Brother!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh boy, Van, you're a funny guy.

Have a great day, Brother!
1) Having a closed mind is not the same has having been hardened!
2) You said we cannot agree on anything, that means you have closed your mind to anything I say. That does not mean someone else might not enlighten you.
3) The Lost are not free to believe if their heart has been hardened.
4) What does the phrase"mixed with faith in them" mean? You did not say. The idea is simply to place faith in the gospel, and so if you hear, understand and do not trust or fully trust in the gospel, it does not benefit you. This is like someone who is not open or fully open to embracing the Good News. But they were not like Soil #1 of Matthew 13, for they heard the gospel. Similarly, it is like those to hear but do not learn from the Father (John 6:45).
5) Limited Spiritual Ability refers to the correct and accurate biblical doctrine concerning "natural people," non-indwelt people.

Every day we have to carry out our mission as ambassadors of Christ is a great day.
 

Charlie24

Active Member
1) Having a closed mind is not the same has having been hardened!
2) You said we cannot agree on anything, that means you have closed your mind to anything I say. That does not mean someone else might not enlighten you.
3) The Lost are not free to believe if their heart has been hardened.
4) What does the phrase"mixed with faith in them" mean? You did not say. The idea is simply to place faith in the gospel, and so if you hear, understand and do not trust or fully trust in the gospel, it does not benefit you. This is like someone who is not open or fully open to embracing the Good News. But they were not like Soil #1 of Matthew 13, for they heard the gospel. Similarly, it is like those to hear but do not learn from the Father (John 6:45).
5) Limited Spiritual Ability refers to the correct and accurate biblical doctrine concerning "natural people," non-indwelt people.

Every day we have to carry out our mission as ambassadors of Christ is a great day.

No need to carry on with this creating strife, we don't want that.

At the end of the day, week, month, and year, we will still disagree.

Let's just let it go.
 
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