he bruised him by getting Judas to betray Jesus, but what happened at the Cross was totally between God the father and the Son
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Why are So many Accepting the Theology of NT Wright here?
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Big problem with Wring on this is he cannot have us actually declared right now fully justified, but has to wait until after death, and to have us seen "finally justified", if our lives measure up well enough to merit it, catholic justification, not bible one
DaveXR650
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God wants to be just, and the justifier of those who believe. From the sacrificial system through the New Testament this is found. "Classic Christianity" is way more diverse than Reformed theology and includes God being able to forgive without any atonement, God "tricking" Satan by having him get Jesus crucified, ransom being paid to Satan and so on. You give them too much credit, although they should not be blamed for doing as well as they could with the scripture they had.
As far as the result being superficial, there is truth to that but not because of faulty theology. Modern men have developed a theology that allows one to say a prayer or acknowledge the truth of a set of propositions and salvation is over, with living a holy life and doing good works a noble option if you so decide. That's not what the Puritans taught, or the later reformed preachers and it's not what the modern Reformed Baptists teach. This argument was put forth in the 1600's with arguments between Puritan Calvinists and Arminians, and especially Roman Catholics. Of course it's a problem, that's why Romans chapter 6 opens up like it does. So it was happening long before Calvinists came to be.
That isn't quite right. He does not view justification as a declaration at all. Instead he views justification as actually being "in Christ" which includes the forgiveness of sins and is an evidence that we will (future) be saved from the wrath to come.
Wright's starting point was the conclusion that justification is much more than being declared just (it is an inclusion into the covenant) and the Reformed missed that point in their theology. He notes that each instance of justification in Paul's writings is in a specific context (Jew and Gentile inclusion in a covenantal relationship) and concludes this cannot be a coincidence.
Note.....I'm not arguing for Wright's position, but I do firmly believe we should not misrepresent the views of others.
Is this RCC justification or is it Biblical justification?:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
Some of you PST folks go so far as to say Satan actually tried to prevent the crucifixion (I won't say his name but his initials are @Martin Marprelate).
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
In Calvinist theology there is a certain inevitability so as a truly saved individual will be doing verse 7 above. Whether it is from a serious Calvinist who is using the deterministic aspects of the chain of salvation or whether it's just a plain old Baptist who believes that when someone is "born again" they really do become a new creature. That's not the same as easy believism and it's not the same as justification by works, which is so repeatedly refuted word for word in scripture. Because though, when something is absolutely inevitable it is so easy to merge logically I tend to be more tolerant of Roman Catholics, and Richard Baxter for that matter, especially in the case of an individual Christian. But having said that, it's a serious error to actively refute justification by faith, apart from works. And a theologian who does that is in real danger.
I would imagine he gets that from the encounter where Jesus rebukes Peter by saying "Get thee behind me Satan". I don't know if we have any way of knowing how much Satan knew about what Jesus was doing or why but it certainly shows that Jesus knew he had to do this and was going to actively set up the situation. Whether at the time Jesus was on the cross Satan thought he was winning or had lost it all, I don't know. The words Jesus used would seem to be a clue. I don't know what it would have to do with penal substitution except that you are admitting as I have often thought, only with penal substitution do you have an explanation of how Jesus really had to die, and that it was part of a plan, rather than being forced into thinking it all was a tragic accident. You seem to be unconsciously aware of that and that is good.Some of you PST folks go so far as to say Satan actually tried to prevent the crucifixion (I won't say his name but his initials are @Martin Marprelate).
God IS Just and thr Justifier of sinners. All views recognize this (I'm not saying that Latin positions ignore this).
But each comes to very different conclusions.
Reformed theology can be superficial, as can any depending on the one holding the theology. By "superficial" I mean in comparison to classic Christianity when it comes to sin.
All Latin positions are based on moralism and a materialized view of sin. As such, the often view God as Just and the Justifier of sinners as almost a problem to be solved (how can a just God justify sinners).
Man committed sins. God must punish sins. God either punishes sins transferred to Christ or He punishes sins that remain on the sinner. Forgiveness is the result of satisfaction (Satisfaction, Substitution Theory) made by Jesus or punishment experienced by Jesus in our stead (Penal Substitution Theory) that the punishment we deserve is remitted.
Classic Christianity also believes that God is Just and the Justifier of sinners. But this group (of diverse views) sees sin as a greater offense not only to God but also to man. Sins are not materialistic. Sin is much more than a moral issue. Simply punishing sins is not justice because it does not clear, or even address, guilt. Sin is much greater than Reformed theology will allow, or solve, in their view of Atonement. It embodies an entire body of evil powers, and is most often grouped with death (a physical death). Sins are merely the manifestation of this type of sin. Men do not need a Savior to be punished for their sinful actions but they need a way of being made "not-guilty", to no longer be under condemnation regardless of past acts. This is impossible under the Old Covenant, but is made under the New. Sin and death are defeated, not by punishing sins but by deliverance from sin and death and an entrance into life.
Guilty as chargedSome of you PST folks go so far as to say Satan actually tried to prevent the crucifixion (I won't say his name but his initials are @Martin Marprelate).
Mark 15:29-32.
I came across N.T. Wright back in the 1990s when I was first exploring Reformed theology. I was very impressed at first because he talked about covenants and so forth, but as I read more of him I realised that he was off-beam in almost everything he wrote.
I did study his work quite deeply back 25 years or so, but to be honest, I haven't come across any supporters of him for a very long time and I think he is more popular in America than in his own country
I did study his work quite deeply back 25 years or so, but to be honest, I haven't come across any supporters of him for a very long time and I think he is more popular in America than in his own country
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
We're always the last ones to get the word. Besides, that British accent means he just has to be smart.
It's RCC justification. In context, it is not justification at all, but the final judgment. The good news for sinners like me is that God justifies the powerless and the ungodly (Romans 5:6). My hope is along these lines:
Before the throne of God above
I have a strong, a perfect plea;
A great High Priest whose name is Love,
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven in His hands,
My name is written on His heart;
I know that while in heaven He stands,
No tongue can bid me thence depart.
When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upwards I look and see His face
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free.
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.
Behold Him there, the risen Lamb!
My perfect, spotless righteousness;
The great unchangeable I AM,
The King of glory and of grace.
One with Himself, I cannot die;
My soul is purchased by His blood.
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ, my Saviour and my God. [Charitie Lees de Chenez, 1841-1923]
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