God is Just and the Justifier of Sinners (Continuation)

[JonC]

Do we still suffer the wages of sin?

I'd answer "absolutely". God is immutable and His Word stands. We die because of sin. But although we die yet shall we live. We suffer the wages of sin, but we escape the wrath to come.

So how is your position not Penal Substitution?

Because I believe Jesus shared in our infirmity, bore our sins, God laid our iniquitiy on Him, Jesus died for our dins....but not "instead of us". I believe it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment (that these are two different things). Sin begats death. The Judgment is "on that day". This is why I would not call my view "penal substitution". I view Jesus as our representative substitute (a legal term) which has Jesus being one of us, sharing in our fate, as a representative of the whole.

To what purpose?

He had to be the "Son of Adam" (Son of Man) in order to be the "Second Adam". Sin and death entered into the world due to man's sin. Men were in bondage to sin and death. Sin begats death. In order to redeem man from this curse, to defeat the powers of sin that held us captive, He became one of us. A representative is one of the whole. It would be unrighteous for God to simply negate His Word.

Christ in His life on earth magnified the law and made it honourable. His life of sinless obedience is credited to His people (c.f. Jer. 23:6; Phil. 3:9)

I agree.

I can only answer this so many times. Read my previous posts.
No. And I have already answered this question.
Again, I've already answered this. Romans 6:23.

I agree with Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. That has been my point. Sin begats or produces death. God gives life.

This, however does not answer my question. I have re-read your posts and while you offer a lot of information you did not answer the two questions I asked (I'm sure by oversight....no biggie).

Please! If we're going to play Twenty Questions. . .

I have not kept count - but you have asked me a lot of questions. I have tried to answer each openly because I believe we should always answer for our faith. And I don't mind. I'll try to answer as long as you have them.

BUT I have asked you two questions:

1. What role does Jesus' physical death play in redemption?

2. Can God forgive sins, or must God punish sins?

I ask because these are essential questions to the Chriatian faith and necessary to understand any Christian belief on redemption.

 

[JonC]

@DaveXR650 and @Martin Marprelate

I appreciate you asking me questions about my belief. I think it us important that we be abke to answer for our faith, and this topic is at the heart of Christianity. I will, of course, try my best to answer your questions so that you can understand my belief.

I also want to understand each of your beliefs. I appreciate the information, videos, passages, commentary quotes, etc. that you have (combined) provided.

I understand (correct me if I have misunderstood) thar both of you believe that on the cross God punished our sins laid upon Jesus which is a punishment taken instead of us.


But to understand your respective beliefs I have some questions. I am starting with two that I believe are foundational to our faith.


1. What role did Jesus' physical death play in redemption (why was it necessary that Jesus physically die)?

2. Can God actually forgive sins or must God punish sins?


I hate to keep asking the same two questions, but for ne to understand what each of you believe I really need to know because so much centers on these issues.

Thanks.

 

[JonC]

Which way to you want to go with this?

I would like to know your beliefs, first on the two questions I asked, and then I can compare that to what I believe. I think this will lead more to where we disagree rather than looking at other "fruits" of our disagrerment that never reach the root.

Were you in those years when you taught this at a level beyond my education in theology, did you really not understand the standard arguments that are always put forth the same way in regards to this?

Yes, I understood the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement and it's development. But this is rarely what is believed (there is typically a difference between academic information and held belief). I have found that not all Calvinists, for example, would agree with Calvinism. Not all Catholics believe the same. In asking about Penal Substitution Theory I have found the same true among Baptists.

You hinted at this with some of your comments about NT Wright. He believes penal substitution, but I doubt his beliefs are the same as, say, John Piper. And Sproul differed from Piper.

So I am trying to understand what you believe.

There is no necessity of atonement except as the necessity grows out of the holy nature of God..

I agree. In fact, in the Psalms we often read of the psalmist relying on God's faithfulness as evidenced by His nature.

God cannot simply forgive sin.

I am not asking if God can "simply" forgive sins. I believe that, for example, that if we repent and confess our sins God will forgive our sins.

I am asking if God can actually forgive sins at all...not just "simply...or if God must instead punish sins.

The atonement, happening in the manner it did must be accepted as happening that way because God wanted it to and it was therefore necessary that it did.

I was not asking if you believed Jesus' death necessary. I was asking what Jesus' death accomplished in terms of redemption.

We all agree that Jesus physically died. We all agree that Christians physically die. So I assume we can all agree that Jesus did not physically die so that we would not experience physical death (Jesus did not die physically "instead of us").

My question is how Jesus' physical death relates to redemption.


For example (hypothetical), could God have instead had Jesus go into the Temple and there punish our sins laid on Jesus and afterwards Jesus walk out alive? Would we be less redeemed?

I don't want to get caught up in that example, just trying to explain my difficulty understanding your view.

As far as redemption goes, why was it necessary for Jesus to die for our sins?

Were we redeemed before Jesus' physical death?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@JonC,
I'm sorry! I have just written a great long screed in answer to you and then accidentally deleted it.
I will write it again, but it may take a little time.

 

[JonC]

@JonC,
I'm sorry! I have just written a great long screed in answer to you and then accidentally deleted it.
I will write it again, but it may take a little time.

I hate it when that happens.

On a serious note, please don't. The more somebody has to write to explain something, the less apt I am to believe that something is correct.

I really just want to know those two questions.

I'll go first to show you and @DaveXR650 what I am asking:

1. @JonC , what role does Jesus' death play in redemption?

It is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. A representative substitute is a member of the whole he represents. Jesus needed to suffer under the powers of evil we suffer under as the wages of sin and then He was judged righteous and vindicated.

2. @JonC , can God forgive sins or must God punish sins?

God can and does forgive sins. Jesus forgave sins during His earthly ministry. And Gid forgives sins when one repents and turns to Him.


See? No need for pages of commentaries, passages, videos of Reformed pastors. Those only hint at one not knowing exactly what they believe.

Just state it and then we can clarify from there (my willingness to answer gives you a starting point where you can ask for clarification or explanation)

That's all I'm asking. Not for Sproul. Not for a defense of your belief. Not for Stott or Owen. Not for videos. Not for commentaries. Not for an attack of me view. Not for personal attacks.


I'm just asking for a simple answer to two very simple but foundational questions:



What role does Jesus death play in redemption?

Can God forgive sins?

 

[DaveXR650]

God can and does forgive sins. Jesus forgave sins during His earthly ministry. And Gid forgives sins when one repents and turns to Him.


See? No need for pages of commentaries, passages, videos of Reformed pastors. Those only hint at one not knowing exactly what they believe.

You have been repeatedly told that God loves us, and wants to forgive. You have also been repeatedly told that it was necessary, based on revealed scripture, that atonement be made for sin. All the videos, commentaries, and passages were only to help you or anyone else reading this, to understand.

The places where Jesus outright forgives do not mean that no atonement was needed because it was not explained again at that time, just like the reason God overlooked sin in the past was that he was looking forward to the time of Christ's work. As an added bonus, you have uncovered one of the best arguments for Calvinism, that being that God can look at something that has already happened or even something that will happen, as already being true because of the nature of his abilities.

You keep repeating the same two questions, with the false premise that by repeating them that shows that they have not been answered when in fact they have been repeatedly answered. There is plenty of good and easily accessible literature out there explaining the atonement and in addition, chances are you could stop in to a random Baptist church almost anywhere and the pastor could explain it correctly to you. I don't know what you are trying to do on here but I think it is a travesty for a moderator on a Baptist board so I am done. There is no more to say. You will have to go with whatever it is you believe.

Based on the rest of this board I could get a lot of participation by suggesting you were predetermined to have that opinion but I personally don't care about that and am quite concerned about the fact that only a couple of people seem interested in the atonement, which is important. I'm done with this discussion, Jon. Go with whatever you see fit.

 

[JonC]

You have been repeatedly told that God loves us, and wants to forgive. You have also been repeatedly told that it was necessary, based on revealed scripture, that atonement be made for sin. All the videos, commentaries, and passages were only to help you or anyone else reading this, to understand.

The places where Jesus outright forgives do not mean that no atonement was needed because it was not explained again at that time, just like the reason God overlooked sin in the past was that he was looking forward to the time of Christ's work. As an added bonus, you have uncovered one of the best arguments for Calvinism, that being that God can look at something that has already happened or even something that will happen, as already being true because of the nature of his abilities.

You keep repeating the same two questions, with the false premise that by repeating them that shows that they have not been answered when in fact they have been repeatedly answered. There is plenty of good and easily accessible literature out there explaining the atonement and in addition, chances are you could stop in to a random Baptist church almost anywhere and the pastor could explain it correctly to you. I don't know what you are trying to do on here but I think it is a travesty for a moderator on a Baptist board so I am done. There is no more to say. You will have to go with whatever it is you believe.

Based on the rest of this board I could get a lot of participation by suggesting you were predetermined to have that opinion but I personally don't care about that and am quite concerned about the fact that only a couple of people seem interested in the atonement, which is important. I'm done with this discussion, Jon. Go with whatever you see fit.

They both have not been answered.

No book can tell me what you believe.

What you have told me is Jesus had to die because the Bibke says Hesus had to die. But you have not answered nt questiin (I did not ask if Jesus had to die, or if blood must be shed for forgiveness).

I asked a question and you have been dancing around the question.

What I am asking is

1. What role Jesus' death played in our redemption?

2. Can God forgive sins.


From your reply I take it that you believe God cannot forgive sins because that is against His nature.

But you have not linked Jesus' death to a redemptive purpose. You have only said it was necessary.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate and @DaveXR650

From your posts this is how I understand your answers (please correct any misunderstanding):

1. What role does Jesus' death play in redemption?

This is unknown, but Jesus' death was necessary because it is how God planned it and the shedding of blood is required for the forgiveness of sins because God wanted it that way. In essence, Jesus' death is not related to redemption as far as we know except that it is the mode God chose (after Jesus suffered the punishment of God on the sins laid upon Him, He died).

2. Can God forgive sins?

No. God cannot forgive sins but must instead punish sins. Men can escape God's punishment by God punishing their sins laid on Jesus.


Again, if I have misunderstood then please correct me.

If that is correct then we can look at our disagreements on those two points and go from there.

 

[JonC]

Going off post #108 I'll compare our positions and adjust yours as needed per your statements (per any corrections you offer to my understanding of your faith).

1. What role does Jesus' death play in our redemption?

My answer:

Jesus' death is essential because it was necessary that God become flesh, be made one of us, and share in our infirmity as the Son of Adam (Son of Man). We can see this by looking at the First and Second Adam. Adam sinned and through him death entered the world. It is appointed man once to die. Jesus had to become a curse, subject to the wages of sin just like every man. So Jesus, although without sin, had to suffer the wages of sin. These were wages we earn (sin begats death). So as one of us Jesus died under the powers of evil (of sin and death, of Satan).

As I said, it is appointed man once to die, but then comes the judgment. Jesus was vindicated. Although He suffered the wages of sin, He had no sin Himself. Jesus became a life-giving spirit. Life is in Him. Our redemption is based on Jesus' death in that He suffered the wages of sin we will suffer. This could not change because man not suffering these wages woukd make God a liar. But Jesus freed us - not from suffering the wages of sin but from the bondage of sin and death. He removed the sting of death. And we, being born of the Spirit, although we die yet will we live.

@Martin Marprelate and @DaveXR650 (and please correct any misunderstandings):

We are saved because God transferred our sins to Jesus and He suffered those sins being punished. Jesus suffered for our sins. The role Jesus plays in our redemption is not known because we escape divine wrath by God punishing our sins on Jesus. The reason Jesus died is that this is the method God chose. Forgiveness can only be obtained by the shedding of blood.

2. Can God forgive sins?

My answer:

Yes. But God does not just simply forgive "willy nilly". If we repent (truely turn from ourselves and to God) which includes forgiving others, confessing our sins, etc. then God is faithful to forgive. This repentance is, ultimately, a "re-birth" (dying to the flesh and being born of the Spirit".

@Martin Marprelate and @DaveXR650 (again, please correct any misunderstandings)

No, God cannot forgive sins. God must punish sins. Therefore we escape punishment by God punishing our sins transferred to Jesus.


Again....I'm trying to extract how you two have answered those two questions through all of the words, videos, and commentaries you combined have posted. If I did not get it, please feel free to correct.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate and @DaveXR650.

This thread is at 110 posts. I suggest we continue by looking at our differences over these two questions on another thread.

I think the length of this thread will prohibit a good examination of one another's beliefs (particularly since we are bound to disagree).

But since we have at least identified two disagreements this woukd be a good start.

What do you think?