So the soul that sins must die was just allegorical/metaphor?
Without the shedding of blood of Messiah same thing then also?
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Penalsubstitutionism.
- Thread starter JonC
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Without the shedding of blood of Messiah same thing then also?
Actually it isn't (and @JesusFan knows it because he has made that foolish mistake before)
Nobody is talking about using the nsme of the doctrine "Trinity" (it is a doctrine). And nobody is asking you to show that the name "Penal Substitution Theory" is in the Bible.
Is the doctrine of the Trinity or Godhead in the text of Scripture? Yes. If you can't find it then hold it as a personal opinion but not truth.
Is the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement in the text of Scrioture? No.
Is my belief about the Atonement in the text of Scripture in the Bible? Yes.
We are not commanded to test doctrine titles against what is written in God's Word, but we are asked to test the doctrine. Too many have been carried away by vain philosophy because they failed to test doctrine.
Did not God Himself institute capital punishment's for certain crimes, as he could forgive those sins, but still had to die to atone for them?
His point is very valid, as wiser minds than you and I have seen and found Psa in the scriptures, so at best all you can legit say is that you do not find in in bible, not that its not there
No, otherwise they would not have believed the secular government should be united with the Church, or infant baptism.
They went back to Scripture to reform parts of their Roman Catholic doctrine they disagreed with.
Now you look to these men as of they are God, and their words as if they are Scripture.
This is why I can and have showed passages stating what I believe and, even with all of your posts, you have not been able to provide any stating yours.
The next thing you should post, if you are an honest person, is the verse that states Jesus died instead of us.
But we both know you won't (you can't provide the passages because you reject solar scriptura, and you hold a theory that is not in Scripture at all)
it's not so much that they failed to test doctrine as to they failed by leaning to their own understanding.
There's plenty testing the doctrines, but they are going about it the wrong way.
Man's intellect is not the answer.
NEVER stated any Reformed was inspired Apostle, and just stating that the entire bible teaches Psa regarding the cross of christ
Romans 3:21-26, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:10, 13, Colossians 2:13-15, 1 Peter 2:24, and 3:18
Here are those verses typed out. Please copy/paste and highlight the words stating Jesus suffered God's wrath instead of us.
I belueve these verses, BUT I belueve them as stated in S rapture. They make sence without adding to them. I see none of @Charlie24 's "gaps".
Romams 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Galatians 3:10-13
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[a] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[b] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[c] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[d]
Colossians 2:13-15
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[
1 Peter 2:24
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
Then:
1. why can you not provide even ONE verse stating Jesus died instead of us?
2. why can you not provide even ONE verse stating Jesus suffered God's wrath so we wouldn't?
3. why can you not provide even ONE verse stating Jesus bore our sins instead of God.
You follow the teachings of men rather than God's. Otherwise you would be able to provide those passages.
No, they failed the test.
We are not to test our understanding by our understanding.
We don't test what we think the Binle teaches with what we think is taught in the Bible.
We are to test doctrine against what is written in Scripture.
By your method a Jehovah Witness could test their doctrine and it pass the test.
OK, Jon, I agree to disagree.
Acts 17:10-12
10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
Yes. We disagree.
Please explain how you "test" doctrine if not by God's Word?
How can you know that you picked the right men to follow?
Lol....you didn't bother to read the passage but instead cherry picked one verse you thought supported your theory!!!
THE PASSAGE YOU BRING UP IS EXACTLY WHAT I BELIEVE.
It is also exactly what you deny.
What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
“As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
“Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right. . .
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord . . .
But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.
Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall
@JonC
I think these non-biblical terms are confusing and causes unnecessary division. Personally I do not know the meaning of penalsubstitutionalism. This is high brow stuff.
Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Babes are going to have a hard time with these terms. I believe in KISS. The KJV is written on a 5th grade level. So I don't know if I believe in Penalsubstitutionism or not because I do not know what it is in the context of God and why Jesus Christ died. I do know that if he had not died and rose again then I would not be saved, so using logic and reason, he died for me.
Isa 53:1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He (the LORD) shall see of the travail of his (the arm of the LORD'S) soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
We do not need these terms.
May the LORD be pleased with this post of Isaiah 53 about his glorious Son and my saviour, Jesus Christ, who bore my sins and gave me his life.
I think these non-biblical terms are confusing and causes unnecessary division. Personally I do not know the meaning of penalsubstitutionalism. This is high brow stuff.
Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Babes are going to have a hard time with these terms. I believe in KISS. The KJV is written on a 5th grade level. So I don't know if I believe in Penalsubstitutionism or not because I do not know what it is in the context of God and why Jesus Christ died. I do know that if he had not died and rose again then I would not be saved, so using logic and reason, he died for me.
Isa 53:1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He (the LORD) shall see of the travail of his (the arm of the LORD'S) soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
We do not need these terms.
May the LORD be pleased with this post of Isaiah 53 about his glorious Son and my saviour, Jesus Christ, who bore my sins and gave me his life.
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Jon, come on now, doctrine can't be tested without the Scripture. Why do you exaggerate my statements to believe I said otherwise?
I don't follow anyone, I have a Church I support and attend. I follow the Scripture, not any man.
Some of these people I agree with but most I just wonder at.
Suffering Servant Isaiah 53 address all of those
In order for any of us to be dogmatic stating Psa not found in the bible, or that its not true at all biblically, one would have to be an inspired Apostle themselves
Or saying pretrib only view is wrong, or Kjv is only bible etc
Actually it does not.
I'll prove it.
Respond with Isaiah 53 and put in bold where the actual passage states that Jesus bore our sins instead of us, that God punished Jesus in our stead, etc.
I know you won't, because you can't (it is not in the passage.
All you could do is say what you have been taught those verses teach. But you can't back it up with Scripture.....especially since you just proved yourself wrong with the last time you tried (when you lifted a few words and ignored the actual passage).
I am not saying you test doctrine without Scrioture. You do, assume you include Scrioture.
I am saying your doctrine does not pass the test of Scripture.
A Jehova Witness will test their doctrine and include Scrioture as well. BUT they also cannot test their doctrine against Scripture itself and pass.
Like you, Jehovah Witnesses use Scripture but trust men to tell them what those passages really mean.
It all boils down to who you pick to fill in the gaps you see in God's Word.
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