So, you don’t believe Baptism saves?
See Catholics believe Baptism saves as scripture states.
We believe it has the force of the Resurrection.
“It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ “.
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Baptism - Sprinkled or Dunked?
- Thread starter rockytopva
- Start date
So, you don’t believe Baptism saves?
See Catholics believe Baptism saves as scripture states.
We believe it has the force of the Resurrection.
“It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ “.
Right, I think I understand you.
You saying that because the Baptism ceremony itself is a human “ work “ that it negates Grace.
Is that right?
Yes, that is correct! The election of God is by Grace only, with faith only in the finished work of Christ.
Lets back up a verse to vs 5,
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Paul is telling the Roman Church of that day (1st century) that God has a remnant of Jews that are saved, by the election of Grace, he is saying only Grace.
Then he goes to explaining that if that salvation is by Grace, it can be no more of works. Paul is referring to a mixed faith for salvation, it's a no-go, it can't be done with God.
Yes, that is correct! The election of God is by Grace only, with faith only in the finished work of Christ.
Lets back up a verse to vs 5,
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Paul is telling the Roman Church of that day (1st century) that God has a remnant of Jews that are saved, by the election of Grace, he is saying only Grace.
Then he goes to explaining that if that salvation is by Grace, it can be no more of works. Paul is referring to a mixed faith for salvation, it's a no-go, it can't be done with God.
This "election according to Grace" is not what the Calvinists think it is. Let's clarify this.
It is the "remnant" that is predestined to God's plan of redemption, not the individual in the remnant being predestined to salvation.
This "election according to Grace" is not what the Calvinists think it is. Let's clarify this.
It is the "remnant" that is predestined to God's plan of redemption, not the individual in the remnant being predestined to salvation.
God's plan of redemption is the Grace, all the way from the call, to the resurrection, it's all Grace.
Yes, that is correct! The election of God is by Grace only, with faith only in the finished work of Christ.
Lets back up a verse to vs 5,
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Paul is telling the Roman Church of that day (1st century) that God has a remnant of Jews that are saved, by the election of Grace, he is saying only Grace.
Then he goes to explaining that if that salvation is by Grace, it can be no more of works. Paul is referring to a mixed faith for salvation, it's a no-go, it can't be done with God.
Right ok.
See Catholics don’t see Baptism as the “ works “ Paul is talking about.
For us, Paul means works of the Law when talking about works.
“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Gal 2:16
The Jews thought that they didn’t have to believe in Jesus Christ but follow the prescriptions of the Law of Moses to be justified before God. This was false, Faith in Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary.
Catholics acknowledge also that no human work of itself and on its own can save.
So a baby doesn’t do anything, it is baptised and receives the free gift of Grace.
It’s a beautiful thing.
Right ok.
See Catholics don’t see Baptism as the “ works “ Paul is talking about.
For us, Paul means works of the Law when talking about works.
“knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Gal 2:16
The Jews thought that they didn’t have to believe in Jesus Christ but follow the prescriptions of the Law of Moses to be justified before God. This was false, Faith in Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary.
Catholics acknowledge also that no human work of itself and on its own can save.
So a baby doesn’t do anything, it is baptised and receives the free gift of Grace.
It’s a beautiful thing.
Here's the mistake.
The Law is based on works, so when Paul says Law he is meaning works, just specifying what type of works.
Baptism is depending on another to make your salvation possible in a ceremony, it most definitely is works.
It's a mixed faith of faith plus works, exactly what Paul warned against.
Faith in Jesus Christ and the water regenerating together = no salvation.
Here's the mistake.
The Law is based on works, so when Paul says Law he is meaning works, just specifying what type of works.
Baptism is depending on another to make your salvation possible in a ceremony, it most definitely is works.
It's a mixed faith of faith plus works, exactly what Paul warned against.
Faith in Jesus Christ and the water regenerating together = no salvation.
This is why it's so important to understand the spiritual baptism.
All your faith is in Christ, with water baptism being the symbol of the spiritual baptism that actually saved you.
No mixed faith, all the faith in Christ.
This is why it's so important to understand the spiritual baptism.
All your faith is in Christ, with water baptism being the symbol of the spiritual baptism that actually saved you.
No mixed faith, all the faith in Christ.
Here's another confirmation of what I'm saying to be true.
Paul said that by grace through faith you are saved, not of works lest any man can boast.
See, if you have mixed faith in Christ and an act of works, such as water baptism, you can say that water baptism helped save you, or the guy that baptized you helped save you, when in reality it was all God that saved you. Do you see the mockery placed toward God with a mixed faith?
Here's the mistake.
The Law is based on works, so when Paul says Law he is meaning works, just specifying what type of works.
Baptism is depending on another to make your salvation possible in a ceremony, it most definitely is works.
It's a mixed faith of faith plus works, exactly what Paul warned against.
Faith in Jesus Christ and the water regenerating together = no salvation.
I think you are taking the “ works “ idea beyond scripture here.
Baptism itself is a prescription and command of Christ and as such is not merely a human work, but the work of Christ through his Body the Church.
Baptism is not human works, it’s the work of Jesus Christ.
“I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’” John 1:33
Very important people understand this. Baptism is not human works.
Eastern Fathers see Baptism as a means of Grace and regeneration.
“The baptized when they come up are sanctified;–the sealed when they go down are pardoned.—They who come up have put on glory;–they who go down have cast off sin.” Ephraim Syrus, Hymns for the Feast of the Epiphany, 6:9 (ante A.D. 373).
“And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerate through the grace given in our baptism.” Basil, On the Spirit, 10:26 (A.D. 375).
“[T]he birth by water and the Spirit, Himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by His own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things He became the first-born of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to His own by water and the Spirit.” Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 2:8 (A.D. 382).
“The baptized when they come up are sanctified;–the sealed when they go down are pardoned.—They who come up have put on glory;–they who go down have cast off sin.” Ephraim Syrus, Hymns for the Feast of the Epiphany, 6:9 (ante A.D. 373).
“And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerate through the grace given in our baptism.” Basil, On the Spirit, 10:26 (A.D. 375).
“[T]he birth by water and the Spirit, Himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by His own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things He became the first-born of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to His own by water and the Spirit.” Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 2:8 (A.D. 382).
I think you are taking the “ works “ idea beyond scripture here.
Baptism itself is a prescription and command of Christ and as such is not merely a human work, but the work of Christ through his Body the Church.
Baptism is not human works, it’s the work of Jesus Christ.
“I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’” John 1:33
Very important people understand this. Baptism is not human works.
OK, my friend, that decision is in your hands. My advise is to weigh it out very carefully.
My recommendation on reading carefully and thoughtfully the book of Romans can help you in that process.
This is not a doctrinal issue, this is an eternal life issue.
OK, my friend, that decision is in your hands. My advise is to weigh it out very carefully.
My recommendation on reading carefully and thoughtfully the book of Romans can help you in that process.
This is not a doctrinal issue, this is an eternal life issue.
I’d feel better if you could affirm that Baptism saves you as scripture says. My worry is you can’t say that in truth, as it doesn’t fit the doctrine you have been espousing. Baptism doesn’t save at all in anyway in that doctrine framework, so it’s sort of in unscriptural country.
Baptism is central doctrine of the Church. Baptismal regeneration was the universal and unanimous belief of all Christianity for the first 1500 years, and is by far the majority belief of Christianity today, even in Protestantism.
Read the scriptures I posted and ancient universal interpretation of scriptures that the Fathers cited.
Pray about it, look at Church history and you can see the origin of the human interpretation of scripture beginning with Zwingli, it’s human tradition of men.
I’d feel better if you could affirm that Baptism saves you as scripture says. My worry is you can’t say that in truth, as it doesn’t fit the doctrine you have been espousing. Baptism doesn’t save at all in anyway in that doctrine framework, so it’s sort of in unscriptural country.
Baptism is central doctrine of the Church. Baptismal regeneration was the universal and unanimous belief of all Christianity for the first 1500 years, and is by far the majority belief of Christianity today, even in Protestantism.
Read the scriptures I posted and ancient universal interpretation of scriptures that the Fathers cited.
Pray about it, look at Church history and you can see the origin of the human interpretation of scripture beginning with Zwingli, it’s human tradition of men.
Yes, water baptism is essential, it goes hand in hand with our salvation, but it is not our salvation. As Calvin said, they can't be separated.
The problem is Calvin and the Luther came from the same belief you've been taught about water baptism.
They did not know about the spiritual baptism, but Paul certainly knew it and so did the 1st century Church.
It was lost somewhere along the way in the forming of the RCC. Along with many other things.
The Reformers did the best they could with what they had learned.
Now look at this.
Romans 6:3-4
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Does this sound familiar? It's the same thing he said in Col. 2. He's speaking of the spiritual baptism.
Noticed "baptized into Christ" not water but the spiritual baptism at the moment you believed in Christ.
"baptized into his death" spiritually.
Yes, water baptism is essential, it goes hand in hand with our salvation, but it is not our salvation. As Calvin said, they can't be separated.
The problem is Calvin and the Luther came from the same belief you've been taught about water baptism.
They did not know about the spiritual baptism, but Paul certainly knew it and so did the 1st century Church.
It was lost somewhere along the way in the forming of the RCC. Along with many other things.
The Reformers did the best they could with what they had learned.
Now look at this.
Romans 6:3-4
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Does this sound familiar? It's the same thing he said in Col. 2. He's speaking of the spiritual baptism.
Noticed "baptized into Christ" not water but the spiritual baptism at the moment you believed in Christ.
"baptized into his death" spiritually.
Look at this, Cathode. This is the first promise in Scripture of the circumcision of Christ, the circumcision made with out hands, tht Paul told us about in Col. 2
Deut. 30:6
“Moreover, the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the hearts of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live."
Jeremiah and Ezekiel both mention it in prophesy, but I'll have to find it for you.
Yes, water baptism is essential, it goes hand in hand with our salvation, but it is not our salvation. As Calvin said, they can't be separated.
The problem is Calvin and the Luther came from the same belief you've been taught about water baptism.
They did not know about the spiritual baptism, but Paul certainly knew it and so did the 1st century Church.
It was lost somewhere along the way in the forming of the RCC. Along with many other things.
The Reformers did the best they could with what they had learned.
Now look at this.
Romans 6:3-4
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Does this sound familiar? It's the same thing he said in Col. 2. He's speaking of the spiritual baptism.
Noticed "baptized into Christ" not water but the spiritual baptism at the moment you believed in Christ.
"baptized into his death" spiritually.
Water Baptism is spiritual, we believe those scriptures all pertain to Baptism.
Water Baptism is spiritual, we believe those scriptures all pertain to Baptism.
NO, this is not water baptism. it's the circumcision of the heart, our spiritual salvation.
Let me explain in case I haven't explained this, I can't remember if I did or not.
The very moment you accept Christ as your Savior, the circumcision of Christ takes place in your spirit, your are spiritually born-again, in fact this is what born-again means, the spiritual baptism of your spirit and soul into Christ.
Water baptism is the symbol of this spiritual baptism that saves us in the spirit.
NO, this is not water baptism. it's the circumcision of the heart, our spiritual salvation.
Let me explain in case I haven't explained this, I can't remember if I did or not.
The very moment you accept Christ as your Savior, the circumcision of Christ takes place in your spirit, your are spiritually born-again, in fact this is what born-again means, the spiritual baptism of your spirit and soul into Christ.
Water baptism is the symbol of this spiritual baptism that saves us in the spirit.
If we keep discussing this I guarantee your going to see it, the lightbulb effect, boom, there it is.
Go back to Colossians 2:10-14 and read the circumcision of Christ.
Then go to Romans 6:3-4 where Paul mentions the same thing but not in as much detail as in Colossians.
I'll have remember the rest in prophets that match Deut. 30:6 that matches the circumcision of the heart, which is the circumcision of Christ foretold in prophecy.
NO, this is not water baptism. it's the circumcision of the heart, our spiritual salvation.
Let me explain in case I haven't explained this, I can't remember if I did or not.
The very moment you accept Christ as your Savior, the circumcision of Christ takes place in your spirit, your are spiritually born-again, in fact this is what born-again means, the spiritual baptism of your spirit and soul into Christ.
Water baptism is the symbol of this spiritual baptism that saves us in the spirit.
It is water Baptism, all the Church universal taught this interpretation of Scripture.
Your interpretation is not Apostolic, it’s Zwinglian human interpretation invented in the 1520s. He was the only person in the world that believed baptism was symbolic at the time. The other reformers looked at him like a nut case.
“We are circumcised not with a fleshly circumcision but with the circumcision of Christ, that is, we are born again into a new man; for, being buried with Him in His baptism, we must die to the old man, because the regeneration of baptism has the force of resurrection.” Hilary of Poitiers, Trinity, 9:9 (A.D. 359).
I could quote sacks of the same interpretation universally across the first 1500 years of Christianity.
They all interpret that that circumcision to be from Baptism.
If we keep discussing this I guarantee your going to see it, the lightbulb effect, boom, there it is.
Go back to Colossians 2:10-14 and read the circumcision of Christ.
Then go to Romans 6:3-4 where Paul mentions the same thing but not in as much detail as in Colossians.
I'll have remember the rest in prophets that match Deut. 30:6 that matches the circumcision of the heart, which is the circumcision of Christ foretold in prophecy.
I just thought of something else to add to the conversation.
1 Cor. 1:17
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
Paul didn't water baptize but a very few in the beginning of his ministry. His associates and helpers did the water baptizing.
This is water baptism he is here speaking of. He let them do the water baptizing, because God didn't send Paul out to water baptize, God sent Paul out to preach the Gospel where the Holy Spirit reaches in the heart and spiritually baptizes.
It is water Baptism, all the Church universal taught this interpretation of Scripture.
Your interpretation is not Apostolic, it’s Zwinglian human interpretation invented in the 1520s. He was the only person in the world that believed baptism was symbolic at the time. The other reformers looked at him like a nut case.
“We are circumcised not with a fleshly circumcision but with the circumcision of Christ, that is, we are born again into a new man; for, being buried with Him in His baptism, we must die to the old man, because the regeneration of baptism has the force of resurrection.” Hilary of Poitiers, Trinity, 9:9 (A.D. 359).
I could quote sacks of the same interpretation universally across the first 1500 years of Christianity.
They all interpret that that circumcision to be from Baptism.
Oh, ok, I see! Then to you that's what it is.