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Did Jesus cease being God's Son on the Cross?

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You have the mind of a scholar, Jon, cutting, dissecting the Word for a perfect understanding.

I'm afraid you're injecting to much of Jon into your understanding.

Try letting the Scripture explain the Scripture without Jon.
Already done that.

God created Adam, took him to the Garden, said "If you eat death will be certain!". But the fruit looked good, was good for food, and could make one wise like God. So what did our boy Adam do? He ate the thing!!!

God said to Adam, "Dude! Now you got to work and then you go back to the dust you came from." Then God kicked him outta that Garden.

Now, get this. Through Adam disobeying death entered the world and spread to us all, because we do the same thing. And all along God told Adam that sin would produce death. We just don't listen. And we end up worm food too.

If you think that's bad, check this out. Death isn't all. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment! Now, we sinned and that sin produced death. We earned that as a wage. But God is going to judge us??!!!!

Seems like we have no hope. If God judges use and we have sinned, then I think the punishment will be more than a time out. In fact, it is the second death....not turning to dust again but suffering eternal punishment.

Don't worry, the story gets better. God sent His Son to die for our sins. Jesus comes under this curse, this power of darkness, of sin and death that is produced by our own stubborn wickedness.

I know what you are thinking, but no. Jesus did not save us from turning into worm food. We earned that. Sin produced that. That's coming. Jesus suffered and died under those powers because He really became one of us. He died.

Don't forget the second part. We die and then that awful judgment where we suffer eternal punishment. Yuck.

But then something really cool happened. When Jesus died and was judged, the judgment was not our punishment but vindication! God gave Jesus a name above every name. He was seated at the right hand of the Father!!!!

OK, ok....I see your concern....that's great for Jesus but what about us?

You remember Adam, the hungry guy who couldn't control himself? Well, we bore his sin. We would do the same thing if we were given that fruit AND we do the same thing in our lives.

Jesus is kinda like Adam. You could even say He is the Second Adam. But the first Adam was flesh and set his desires on the things of the flesh. That fruit looked good, looked good to eat, and it would make him wise like God.

This Second Adam, well He became a life giving Spirit. This is called the manifestation of God's righteousness apart from the law. What Jesus required was one to have faith in Him. This word "faith" is a little word with a big meaning. It means to repent (to turn from ourselves, our desires, our abilities) and believe (to trust in Jesus, to turn to the things of the Spirit).

Seems complexicated (made that one up) don't it? How does that save us? What about us being wicked and sinning? This is the part that confounded the Pharisees. It isn't quite the way smart philosophers would do it, but it is genius. It just doesn't fit the wisdom of the world because the world does not believe God can make the guilty innocent. The world wants its pound of flesh.

You see, when you believe in Jesus you set your mind on the Spirit....well....God looks at your old heart and rips that sucker out (just like that Indiana Jones movie). Don't worry, though, He gives you a new one. And He puts His Spirit in you.

God makes you a new creation. In this life we still struggle with sin, and that old you is still here. But we are saved (we will escape that wrath to come), we are being saved (we are being transformed into the image of Christ) and we will be saved (at Judgment we will be innocent, all of that bad old man will be gone and we will be refined....kinda like a jeweler purifies gold.



Aside from the creative language, that is actually in the text of God's Word. I may have taken liberties with the Indiana Jones part.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
When you get in trouble you tend to do this as if I am your student and must answer your challenge.
OK Karen.....you are reading into things.

I was not challenging you but simply asking you questions.

I was not playing the role of a teacher, but that of a student awaiting your answer so that I could better understand your belief.


This is not the first time you complained when people asked you questions or asked for clarification about something you posted.

I was never in trouble. I know what I believe. I was asking you about what you believe.

You make too many assumptions and rarely clarify anything about your belief when asked. It seems as if you just haven't gotten to that page in Owen's commentary to know what you believe. So you get defensive.

Look, I don't know you. I will probably never meet you in person. Just say what you believe and if you don't know what you believe just say "I don't know".

We need more questions here, not less.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Already done that.

God created Adam, took him to the Garden, said "If you eat death will be certain!". But the fruit looked good, was good for food, and could make one wise like God. So what did our boy Adam do? He ate the thing!!!

God said to Adam, "Dude! Now you got to work and then you go back to the dust you came from." Then God kicked him outta that Garden.

Now, get this. Through Adam disobeying death entered the world and spread to us all, because we do the same thing. And all along God told Adam that sin would produce death. We just don't listen. And we end up worm food too.

If you think that's bad, check this out. Death isn't all. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment! Now, we sinned and that sin produced death. We earned that as a wage. But God is going to judge us??!!!!

Seems like we have no hope. If God judges use and we have sinned, then I think the punishment will be more than a time out. In fact, it is the second death....not turning to dust again but suffering eternal punishment.

Don't worry, the story gets better. God sent His Son to die for our sins. Jesus comes under this curse, this power of darkness, of sin and death that is produced by our own stubborn wickedness.

I know what you are thinking, but no. Jesus did not save us from turning into worm food. We earned that. Sin produced that. That's coming. Jesus suffered and died under those powers because He really became one of us. He died.

Don't forget the second part. We die and then that awful judgment where we suffer eternal punishment. Yuck.

But then something really cool happened. When Jesus died and was judged, the judgment was not our punishment but vindication! God gave Jesus a name above every name. He was seated at the right hand of the Father!!!!

OK, ok....I see your concern....that's great for Jesus but what about us?

You remember Adam, the hungry guy who couldn't control himself? Well, we bore his sin. We would do the same thing if we were given that fruit AND we do the same thing in our lives.

Jesus is kinda like Adam. You could even say He is the Second Adam. But the first Adam was flesh and set his desires on the things of the flesh. That fruit looked good, looked good to eat, and it would make him wise like God.

This Second Adam, well He became a life giving Spirit. This is called the manifestation of God's righteousness apart from the law. What Jesus required was one to have faith in Him. This word "faith" is a little word with a big meaning. It means to repent (to turn from ourselves, our desires, our abilities) and believe (to trust in Jesus, to turn to the things of the Spirit).

Seems complexicated (made that one up) don't it? How does that save us? What about us being wicked and sinning? This is the part that confounded the Pharisees. It isn't quite the way smart philosophers would do it, but it is genius. It just doesn't fit the wisdom of the world because the world does not believe God can make the guilty innocent. The world wants its pound of flesh.

You see, when you believe in Jesus you set your mind on the Spirit....well....God looks at your old heart and rips that sucker out (just like that Indiana Jones movie). Don't worry, though, He gives you a new one. And He puts His Spirit in you.

God makes you a new creation. In this life we still struggle with sin, and that old you is still here. But we are saved (we will escape that wrath to come), we are being saved (we are being transformed into the image of Christ) and we will be saved (at Judgment we will be innocent, all of that bad old man will be gone and we will be refined....kinda like a jeweler purifies gold.



Aside from the creative language, that is actually in the text of God's Word. I may have taken liberties with the Indiana Jones part.

I agree with so much of what you've said here, but I know the next post will lead to another drawn out argument, lol.

I like you Jon, you're a very understanding guy, with some wit, but I don't want to continue the arguing when we are both dead-locked on what we believe.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I agree with so much of what you've said here, but I know the next post will lead to another drawn out argument, lol.

I like you Jon, you're a very understanding guy, with some wit, but I don't want to continue the arguing when we are both dead-locked on what we believe.
You are up late.

Anyway....no real arguments. For me, a legitimate argument has to be over Scripture itself. Otherwise It's "my way is better than your way", which h really isn't an argument.

In an argument both sides learn.

Like arguing about what "Day" means in Genesis (I believe a literal day, others don't, but it is about interpreting what is actually in Scripture).

This I do for fun. :Biggrin
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
You are up late.

Anyway....no real arguments. For me, a legitimate argument has to be over Scripture itself. Otherwise It's "my way is better than your way", which h really isn't an argument.

In an argument both sides learn.

Like arguing about what "Day" means in Genesis (I believe a literal day, others don't, but it is about interpreting what is actually in Scripture).

This I do for fun. :Biggrin

I can only sleep 3-4 hours a day. Being retired for some time now I have no schedule for that sleep.

I usually do my reading and study in the wee hours of the morning, works for me.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I can only sleep 3-4 hours a day. Being retired for some time now I have no schedule for that sleep.

I usually do my reading and study in the wee hours of the morning, works for me.
I've got about 5 more years :-(
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I have heard several opinions on this topic.

I think the most I heard was that Jesus had to stop being God (Jesus' divinity departed) because God cannot die.

I do not believe that stands up to logic, much less Scripture (we are talking about experiencing the death of a body).
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I've got about 5 more years :-(

Retirement suits me just fine. I've got plenty to do around here with 10 acres and a few horses, but I'm doing what I enjoy, in my own way and my own timing. I've found that spending time with the Lord is much easier than before, trying to squeeze a little here and there.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Retirement suits me just fine. I've got plenty to do around here with 10 acres and a few horses, but I'm doing what I enjoy, in my own way and my own timing. I've found that spending time with the Lord is much easier than before, trying to squeeze a little here and there.
Thankfully I have plenty of time at work for study (obviously....since I'm "working" now).

I do worry about not having a job to go to when I retire, but I think I'll get used to it quickly.

I get a week off each month, so my wife and I travel.

Which reminds me....gotta ask @John of Japan what are must she's in Kyoto. Headed there in a couple of weeks. We're having lunch with a Baptist pastor in a town nearby.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I have heard several opinions on this topic.

I think the most I heard was that Jesus had to stop being God (Jesus' divinity departed) because God cannot die.

I do not believe that stands up to logic, much less Scripture (we are talking about experiencing the death of a body).

Christ couldn't die as the Word, before He came to earth.

He took on humanity in order to die. As the Scripture says, "no man takes it from me, I lay it down freely."

Christ chose to die for us in the flesh, though He didn't die in the spirit.

He is God, and He couldn't set that fact aside, as He did with His power as God.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Christ couldn't die as the Word, before He came to earth.

He took on humanity in order to die. As the Scripture says, "no man takes it from me, I lay it down freely."

Christ chose to die for us in the flesh, though He didn't die in the spirit.

He is God, and He couldn't set that fact aside, as He did with His power as God.
I agree.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Colossians 1:17 (I think....I know it's Colossians 1:....17ish)
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I agree.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Colossians 1:17 (I think....I know it's Colossians 1:....17ish)

I believe that when Christ emptied Himself and took the form of a servant, as Paul said, He emptied Himself of the power He had as God.

All the miracles He performed were by the Holy Spirit through Him. He didn't use His power as God to know what would happen next.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Him everything. He was the perfect example of what God wants from us.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I believe that when Christ emptied Himself and took the form of a servant, as Paul said, He emptied Himself of the power He had as God.

All the miracles He performed were by the Holy Spirit through Him. He didn't use His power as God to know what would happen next.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Him everything. He was the perfect example of what God wants from us.
I agree. I believe had He not then we couldn't follow His example in how we live.

Reading Psalm 22 I'm always struck by the faith of the Servant. He is suffering, but always relying on God's faithfulness as He recounts how God has proven Himself faithful.

So when I read of Jesus walking on water I believe this was the faith Peter ended up lacking, but the faith we strive for.

It is total submission. And we are not there yet, but I believe we will be.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I agree. I believe had He not then we couldn't follow His example in how we live.

Reading Isaiah 53 I'm always struck by the faith of the Servant. He is suffering, but always relying on God's faithfulness as He recounts how God has proven Himself faithful.

So when I read of Jesus walking on water I believe this was the faith Peter ended up lacking, but the faith we strive for.

It is total submission. And we are not there yet, but I believe we will be.

For example, when the woman with an issue of blood touched His garment from behind, He said, who touched me?

He wasn't playing dumb, He didn't know who it was. The Holy Spirit didn't tell Him.

That is how He lived lived His entire life, by faith and a will to please the Father, even though He was equal with the Father in deity, having become a servant in the flesh for us.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
For example, when the woman with an issue of blood touched His garment from behind, He said, who touched me?

He wasn't playing dumb, He didn't know who it was. The Holy Spirit didn't tell Him.

That is how He lived lived His entire life, by faith and a will to please the Father, even though He was equal with the Father in deity, having become a servant in the flesh for us.

But Jon, here's where we will disagree. It has been fun seeing that we can agree!

We inherited the sin nature from Adam when he fell from the innocent nature to the fallen nature.

Christ was virgin born, born of the Spirit, and did not inherit that sin nature.

If He had not been virgin born of the Spirit, He would have been born with the sin nature and in need of a Savior Himself.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
But Jon, here's where we will disagree. It has been fun seeing that we can agree!

We inherited the sin nature from Adam when he fell from the innocent nature to the fallen nature.

Christ was virgin born, born of the Spirit, and did not inherit that sin nature.

If He had not been virgin born of the Spirit, He would have been born with the sin nature and in need of a Savior Himself.
I have no problem with the idea we inherited our nature from Adam (by our first nature we are "of Adam". We have a mind set on the flesh.

I cannot comment on the part about Adam falling from an innocent yo a fallen nature because, as simole as that sounds, there is a lot to unpack.

BUT I do believe we inherited Adam's fallen nature in that our eyes are also open and we are like God knowing good and evil. So this is not where we disagree, at least not strongly.

I do disagree with linking Jesus' sinlessness to being born of a virgin. One reason is I do not believe sin is biological. The other is it is not limited to the father (Mary was not sinless).

The main reason, however, is that Scripture gives us two natures - a mind set on the flesh and a mind set on the Spirit. I believe that Jesus was tempted in all ways as is common to man but He did not sin. His mind was set on the Spirit.

But yes, I disagree that the reason Jesus was born of a virgin was to avoid a sin nature. Instead I believe it is so that He would have the heavenly Father and not an earthly father, and as a sign.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I have no problem with the idea we inherited our nature from Adam (by our first nature we are "of Adam". We have a mind set on the flesh.

I cannot comment on the part about Adam falling from an innocent yo a fallen nature because, as simole as that sounds, there is a lot to unpack.

BUT I do believe we inherited Adam's fallen nature in that our eyes are also open and we are like God knowing good and evil. So this is not where we disagree, at least not strongly.

I do disagree with linking Jesus' sinlessness to being born of a virgin. One reason is I do not believe sin is biological. The other is it is not limited to the father (Mary was not sinless).

The main reason, however, is that Scripture gives us two natures - a mind set on the flesh and a mind set on the Spirit. I believe that Jesus was tempted in all ways as is common to man but He did not sin. His mind was set on the Spirit.

But yes, I disagree that the reason Jesus was born of a virgin was to avoid a sin nature. Instead I believe it is so that He would have the heavenly Father and not an earthly father, and as a sign.

I pretty much knew we would disagree on that from previous conversations.

Isaiah made the prophecy, "a virgin shall conceive." I'm sorry we can't agree on why.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I pretty much knew we would disagree on that from previous conversations.

Isaiah made the prophecy, "a virgin shall conceive." I'm sorry we can't agree on why.

Jon, I don't want to leave you in the dark as to why I bleieve this.

Heb. 7:26
"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

He was made separate from sinners by the virgin birth.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Jon, I don't want to leave you in the dark as to why I bleieve this.

Heb. 7:26
"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

He was made separate from sinners by the virgin birth.

There's a lot I could say and point out on this, but Christ was ever present with the sinners, so much so that the Pharisee's scorned Him for it.

He was present with the sinners but at the same time separate from them.

He was flesh and blood just as we are, but without sin, without the sin nature by way of the virgin birth.
 
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