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Did Adam Have a Free Will?

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Paleouss

Member
Aaron said:
Yes. But, sin not being imputed does not mean there is no guilt.
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Aaron, thank you for your reply. I hope your Monday was a blessed one.

I'm not sure your distinction between trespass/transgression/imputed...and..."guilt"? Within the context you used it, that being the existence of the one law 'you shall not eat'. Your use of the word "guilt" appears to be outside the law (or existing without law). But how can one have 'guilt' if they have not heard?

Peace to you brother
 
P

Paleouss

Member
atpollard said:
So I leave it to y’all to decide whether scripture indicates that Adam had the sort of faith that compels action (like Abraham drawing a blade or Daniel praying in his window knowing the consequences) or the sort of faith that compels inaction (like the demons who believe and tremble).
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I like your thought provoker.

Since John Calvin's formulation of "faith is coming before God empty" really resonates with me. It seems to me that what the demons had/have is not this kind of faith. If it is true that the sin of pride was the first sin for the devil. Then I think it would follow that although the devil 'believed' he lacked 'faith' (Calvin's type). For he no longer came before God empty, but with pride, puffed up, etc.

I suppose the question is, in Adam's case, does coming before the Lord 'empty' constitute 'action' or 'purpose' or 'will'? If Adam came before the Lord (walked with him in the garden) empty, and the Lord was pleased with this, was this a presenting of oneself as empty through 'purpose'... or through ignorance the ignorance of any other option? I tend to lean toward the former.

So for me, it seems that although salvation faith and pre-fall faith might have some differences (I think they do). The one thing that is not different is the 'emptiness' that is required of the self to God. This, I think, would seem to be a universal, throughout all ages, commonality. So in this sense, Adam was to bring faith.

As an added edit. I also think this type of presentation to the Lord, bringing oneself as empty, also includes love for God (first commandment).

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Charlie24 said:
I don't think it's possible for me to explain foreknowledge to your liking.
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Those who espouse the free will version of predestination according to foreknowledge generally mean that God knows history from beginning to end, and therefore knows what free decisions man will make, and then works accordingly...hence the built-in contingency plan of the Cross.

(I'm speaking as one of them right now. The truth is that the Cross wasn't a contingency, it was the whole goal of Creation.)

Therefore, on Day One, God knew that about six thousand years later, Charlie24 would say yes to Jesus, and so made sure he would be brought into the world to hear the Gospel and save him.

Is that what you mean? That's a simple yes or no question unless you care to elaborate.

What you've been describing is simply God knowing the hearts of those living in the moment He's working, not the awareness of things before they come into being and planning accordingly.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Paleouss said:
Aaron, thank you for your reply. I hope your Monday was a blessed one.

I'm not sure your distinction between trespass/transgression/imputed...and..."guilt"? Within the context you used it, that being the existence of the one law 'you shall not eat'. Your use of the word "guilt" appears to be outside the law (or existing without law). But how can one have 'guilt' if they have not heard?

Peace to you brother
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Think of the Philistines when they put the Ark of the Covenant into the temple of Dagon. They didn't have the law, but God punished them with a plague of tumors (and rats [LXX]).
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
Those who espouse the free will version of predestination according to foreknowledge generally mean that God knows history from beginning to end, and therefore knows what free decisions man will make, and then works accordingly...hence the built-in contingency plan of the Cross.

(I'm speaking as one of them right now. The truth is that the Cross wasn't a contingency, it was the whole goal of Creation.)

Therefore, on Day One, God knew that about six thousand years later, Charlie24 would say yes to Jesus, and so made sure he would be brought into the world to hear the Gospel and save him.

Is that what you mean? That's a simple yes or no question unless you care to elaborate.

What you've been describing is simply God knowing the hearts of those living in the moment He's working, not the awareness of things before they come into being and planning accordingly.
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That's basically the idea, yes! It's about His redemption plan that He predestined for us before the foundation of the world, for us to be conformed in the image of Christ.

He didn't pick anyone, He has called all to repentance, and those who will hear His Gospel and believe, they are predestined to be conformed in the image of Christ. But of course He knows who they are before they were born, and He knows who will not accept Him on His terms. But He suffers long with them, not willing that any should perish but that all come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
As an aside, some mention has been made of the question of the ”faith” of Adam (as in “did Adam have saving faith”?). While the answer to the salvific Faith of ANY specific individual feels way above my pay grade, I would offer the observation that the faith of salvation is more closely linked to the Hebrew concept of “an action” than the modern concept of “a belief”. The FAITH that saves compels one to act on what they believe to be true. Like the old preacher illustration about believing a man can ride a unicycle across a tight rope, and being willing to ride on his back across that tightrope.

So I leave it to y’all to decide whether scripture indicates that Adam had the sort of faith that compels action (like Abraham drawing a blade or Daniel praying in his window knowing the consequences) or the sort of faith that compels inaction (like the demons who believe and tremble).
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Abraham's faith wasn't a mere belief in God, it was believing God. Even though he raised the knife to kill his son, he still believed God's promise that the nation he was to spawn would come through Isaac, even if God had to raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. His obedience wasn't his righteousness. It was his faith. And the just shall live by faith.

Adam and Eve had no doubt that God existed. But when temptation came, they believed the lie of the serpent, and doubted that they would surely die. Their doubt was more egregious than the doubt of those that followed. They that followed were never innocent, and they never walked and talked with God daily in the manner or in the setting that Adam and Eve did. Adam and Eve came to believe God to be a liar.

Salvation simply isn't offered to the demons. They know God is, and they know God to be Truth. Therefore they tremble.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
Abraham's faith wasn't a mere belief in God, it was believing God. Even though he raised the knife to kill his son, he still believed God's promise that the nation he was to spawn would come through Isaac, even if God had to raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. His obedience wasn't his righteousness. It was his faith. And the just shall live by faith.

Adam and Eve had no doubt that God existed. But when temptation came, they believed the lie of the serpent, and doubted that they would surely die. Their doubt was more egregious than the doubt of those that followed. They that followed were never innocent, and they never walked and talked with God daily in the manner or in the setting that Adam and Eve did. Adam and Eve came to believe God to be a liar.

Salvation simply isn't offered to the demons. They know God is, and they know God to be Truth. Therefore they tremble.
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What was it that Abraham believed of God that his faith was counted for righteousness?
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
IMHO ... that God is and His word is Truth (trustworthy and believable, able to be counted on).

[That is what floored me when I converted from ATHEISM after meeting HIM.]
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Here's what I believe Abraham believed, although it's not strictly written in Scripture, there is enough evidence to believe it.

Believing in or on God never saved anyone! Salvation has always been in Jesus Christ, there is no other way. Whether looking forward to Him as the Lamb of God, as did the OT saints, or looking back at Him, as we in NT do.

Christ said in John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

The Scripture doesn't record this in the OT, because Christ is hidden there. But in some way, maybe God spoke it to him, or through a dream or vision, Abraham was made aware of Jesus Christ, and believed in Him, that God had spoken the truth.

So I see Abraham's righteousness counted to him by faith in the Coming Messiah.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
I can't say what the appearance was, but I can say that Abraham was made to understand justification by faith in the Messiah.
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John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Colossians 1:15, Who is the image of the invisible God, . . .
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Charlie24 said:
That's basically the idea, yes! It's about His redemption plan that He predestined for us before the foundation of the world, for us to be conformed in the image of Christ.

He didn't pick anyone, He has called all to repentance, and those who will hear His Gospel and believe, they are predestined to be conformed in the image of Christ. But of course He knows who they are before they were born, and He knows who will not accept Him on His terms. But He suffers long with them, not willing that any should perish but that all come to the knowledge of the truth.
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This is what I hear you saying. His plan was predestined. NOT us.
 
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