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The Definition Of “Foreknowledge”

Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Ben1445 said:
Adoption is a part of Romans 8 for sure. No one said it was not part of it. You are looking to avoid the truth however, so you can continue if you want. No one is warping anything. You are just trying to avoid the issue/ You are consistently missing the discussion points
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You have only avoided the issues that I have with your position.
Instead of answering, you said I’m not listening to you.
I am searching the Scripture and I don’t find what you say to be correct. The equivalent of “I’m right. You’re wrong,” is not a legitimate answer.
I’m waiting for you to stop saying that I am avoiding the issue, and actually get to the issue.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe this is going to fast for you. You are not following the discussion as a whole. if you want to try we will have to go one point at a time so you could follow.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Ben, if you would respond to this previous post.

The bible meaning of the word "to Know" often means an intimate knowledge of the person, many times husband and wife;

Gen:4 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Gen.4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived,

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

So when it appears in the NT. Mt.1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

So biblical foreknowledge is God having an intimate knowledge of the people, a special knowledge . romans 8:29..Whom He did Foreknow,
God knows who all men are because He knows everything.

However Whom He did foreknow is said to be those He set His love on.
All Christians should believe this as it is the biblical teaching. The Calvinists all believe it , but it looks like many do not see it.

Let start with this.......Do you see I said to know is used here as an intimate knowledge...that is the wives spoken of here got pregnant.

Do you agree?
Do you understand that in these cases the word does not mean ...know things..but rather it is to "know their wives?
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Baptizo said:
Why do some change the definition to mean that something is determined to happen or exist?
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Because according to God's word, it goes hand-in-hand:

" Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. " ( Acts 2:22-24 ).

Foreknowledge / foreknowing, at least Scripturally, always means that God not only knows ( has intimate knowledge of someone or something ), but it means that God has set things in motion so that what He has planned will come to pass...regardless of any of His creations' actions or wills.
 
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atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Are you suggesting that there is another reason, other than faith, that a person would be sanctified by the Holy Spirit?
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I am suggesting that ELECT (by definition) comes before repentance. “Because of our decision” would indicate AFTER repentance (or during). Therefore, the ELECTION of 1 Peter 1:1-2 that comes THROUGH “sanctification” cannot be based on “because of our decision” without creating a temporal paradox: God sees what we will freely choose so he chooses us to receive the Spirit as the means by which he will choose us to choose Christ???
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
Correct me but are you not the one that follows the WCF/LBCF, the TULIP/DoG, divine determinism or to make it easier for you, are you not a calvinist?

The philosophy is what you try too peddle as truth.
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By the same standard, you peddle the philosophy of the students of Jacobius Arminius as truth.
Calvinism has been the theology of the Protestant church since day 1.
Arminius and his group raised objections to the founding theology of the Protestant church in The Articles of Remonstrance.
 
B

Ben1445

Active Member
Zaatar71 said:
Ben, if you would respond to this previous post.

The bible meaning of the word "to Know" often means an intimate knowledge of the person, many times husband and wife;

Gen:4 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Gen.4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived,

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

So when it appears in the NT. Mt.1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

So biblical foreknowledge is God having an intimate knowledge of the people, a special knowledge . romans 8:29..Whom He did Foreknow,
God knows who all men are because He knows everything.

However Whom He did foreknow is said to be those He set His love on.
All Christians should believe this as it is the biblical teaching. The Calvinists all believe it , but it looks like many do not see it.

Let start with this.......Do you see I said to know is used here as an intimate knowledge...that is the wives spoken of here got pregnant.

Do you agree?
Do you understand that in these cases the word does not mean ...know things..but rather it is to "know their wives?
Click to expand...
The OT was written in Hebrew. I was looking at the Greek which is what the NT was written in.
Sorry if I was going too fast for you.
I did respond back in post #54. In that post you will see that I don’t find any reason to see that even in a relationship as used in Matthew, that knowledge is not still the case. In any case, I find no NT use of the Greek word that means exclusively a relationship.
Do you understand that to know your spouse means you have more information about them than hopefully other people do.
 
B

Ben1445

Active Member
atpollard said:
How is that different from Omniscience?
God knows EVERYTHING (it is part of the basic definition of what makes him God) … [barring Open Theism].
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I have never met anyone to my knowledge, who believes in open theism. I reject it.
It is omniscience. But knowing and causing are two different things. I believe that God can allow people to make their own decisions and still know what they will decide, how many times they will change their mind from chocolate to vanilla ice cream, and what their final choice of chocolate chip cookie dough is. I make light of it with ice cream but the same truth applies.
I don’t see that a person being given an absolute free will limits God in any way. He is able to change things as He wills. Ask Nebuchadnezzar.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Ben1445 said:
[The OT was written in Hebrew. I was looking at the Greek which is what the NT was written in.
Sorry if I was going too fast for you.]
I did respond back in post #54. In that post you will see that I don’t find any reason to see that even in a relationship as used in Matthew, that knowledge is not still the case. In any case, I find no NT use of the Greek word that means exclusively a relationship.
Do you understand that to know your spouse means you have more information about them than hopefully other people do.
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Ben None of this post is on target. Let me try again...we will do one point at a time-

1] 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived

What does it mean when it says. Adam knew eve and she conceived.? what does The word know mean here?
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
I have never met anyone to my knowledge, who believes in open theism. I reject it.
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Agreed. I only mentioned it as the one possible exception to “everyone accepts omniscience”.

Ben1445 said:
It is omniscience. But knowing and causing are two different things. I believe that God can allow people to make their own decisions and still know what they will decide, how many times they will change their mind from chocolate to vanilla ice cream, and what their final choice of chocolate chip cookie dough is. I make light of it with ice cream but the same truth applies.
I don’t see that a person being given an absolute free will limits God in any way. He is able to change things as He wills. Ask Nebuchadnezzar.
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Are you familiar with the argument raised by some that “born of water and spirit” in John 3 refers to “natural birth” (water being amniotic fluid) and “spiritual rebirth” (spirit being the Holy Spirit at our conversion)? There is a fundamental flaw with this interpretation of John 3 since it renders Jesus conversation with Nicodemus just a bit “nonsensical”. I mean the only human beings excluded from “born of water” if water means amniotic fluid are Adam and Eve. Is it really reasonable that Jesus wanted to make the point that Adam and Eve were excluded from entrance to the Kingdom of God? If not, then the very mention of the requirement to be “born of amniotic fluid” is a pointless distinction since it applies to EVERYONE. Why would Jesus even mention it?

I bring up this example of poor interpretation because your view of “foreknowledge” (in scripture) = “omniscience” suffers from the same condition. Why would anyone bother to mention it if God knows EVERYTHING? God elects the reprobate to eternal damnation based on his foreknowledge. God elects infants to die and people to recover from cancer based on his foreknowledge. What action happens that either “catches God by surprise” (omniscience failed and God did not see that coming) or that God did not ”plan” to happen (oops, that person was supposed to live and not be killed by a drunk driver … oh well, good thing God wrote eternity in pencil). Can you see the problem with equating SOMETHING that scripture thinks is important enough to mention (and called “Foreknew”) with general omniscience of facts (which God knows all facts, so that is hardly a special point related to “election” that needs to be mentioned). “Foreknew” must mean something more than “omniscience” just as “born of water” must mean something more than “natural birth” … or it required no mentioning.

I am not arguing against “free will” or for “hard determinism” … that is another issue and much harder. I am merely arguing against the “trivializing” of the word “foreknew” in scripture. It must mean SOMETHING worthy of being “God-breathed”.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
By the same standard, you peddle the philosophy of the students of Jacobius Arminius as truth.
Calvinism has been the theology of the Protestant church since day 1.
Arminius and his group raised objections to the founding theology of the Protestant church in The Articles of Remonstrance.
Click to expand...

Good think he did point out the logical errors of Augustine's religion and we have since come to know that the basis of that view is from pagan philosophy but then Calvin carried it forward to what we see today in the TULIP/DoG dogma that we see pushed on various boards.
 
B

Ben1445

Active Member
Zaatar71 said:
Ben None of this post is on target. Let me try again...we will do one point at a time-

1] 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived

What does it mean when it says. Adam knew eve and she conceived.? what does The word know mean here?
Click to expand...
Step into the NT and we’ll talk about the Greek words. It absolutely is on point. You haven’t taken the time to look at what I said and what I didn’t put in the post because nobody is going to look at over 200 verses in a post. Your attention span is not that long. I have already seen people say that they skip the long posts. I don’t think mine are any different. If you are interested, look up the use of the Greek words. All three that I mentioned. Every time. I did. When you have done that you can try to tell me I’m still wrong but you would be ignoring 99%of the uses because you wouldn’t be able to cram them into your preferred definition. It is no stretch of the word to say that “know” in Luke 1:34 is still informational in context and is actually a very polite way to not say what you are saying. This politeness in speech is something that is lacking in common conversation in the present day. I can see where it might lead someone to apply some extra meaning to it. Surely you are not implying that God is having a sexual relationship with believers. That is the context you keep pushing for.
I don’t agree that that is the context. I think it says just as much to say that Mary had no knowledge of any man.
 
B

Ben1445

Active Member
Zaatar71 said:
Ben None of this post is on target. Let me try again...we will do one point at a time-

1] 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived

What does it mean when it says. Adam knew eve and she conceived.? what does The word know mean here?
Click to expand...
Did you read my post in 54?
 
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