The Definition Of “Foreknowledge”

[Silverhair]

I am suggesting that ELECT (by definition) comes before repentance. “Because of our decision” would indicate AFTER repentance (or during). Therefore, the ELECTION of 1 Peter 1:1-2 that comes THROUGH “sanctification” cannot be based on “because of our decision” without creating a temporal paradox: God sees what we will freely choose so he chooses us to receive the Spirit as the means by which he will choose us to choose Christ???

Your suggestion regarding elect is not biblical. But I can understand why you are trying to make it work.

The term "elect" implies no more than the fact that God has put them into the visible Church.

Do you have any scripture that clearly supports your elect before repentance view?

You were correct when you said "“Because of our decision” would indicate AFTER repentance (or during)." as that is what we see in the biblical text. They hear, then believe [that world be repentance/faith] then they are saved, are then one of the elect. We see this in Eph 1:13 and Rom 10:9-10.

Salvation, made one of the elect, happens in a moment as we see in the above verses.
Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby the Holy Spirit works in believers, making their lives holy, separated from their old ways and to God in order to be more like Him.

This is just a convoluted way of saying divine determinism "God sees what we will freely choose so he chooses us to receive the Spirit as the means by which he will choose us to choose Christ???" I can see why you put all the ? marks.

 

[atpollard]

Your suggestion regarding elect is not biblical.

We shall see ...

The term "elect" implies no more than the fact that God has put them into the visible Church.

Probably true of the adjective [G1588] ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; from G1586; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect. found in places like:

[Mat 22:14 ESV] 14 For many are called, but few are chosen."
[Mar 13:20 ESV] 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
[Luk 18:7 ESV] 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
[Rom 8:33 ESV] 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
[Col 3:12 ESV] 12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
[1Pe 1:1 ESV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

However, even in this case, we also have verses that suggest other possibilities, like:

[2Ti 2:10 ESV] 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Do you have any scripture that clearly supports your elect before repentance view?

I believe so.
Let us examine the verb [G1586] ἐκλέγομαι eklégomai, ek-leg'-om-ahee; middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select:—make choice, choose (out), chosen. found in places like:

[Mar 13:20 ESV] 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
[Jhn 15:16, 19 ESV] 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. ... 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
[1Co 1:27-28 ESV] 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
[Eph 1:4 ESV] 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
[Jas 2:5 ESV] 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Moving from a rigid fixation on semantics (the word "choose" or "chosen" or "elect" in English) and broadening our search to the CONCEPT of God as the monergistic "prime mover" in salvation, we can add this:

[Rom 8:26-30 ESV] 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[Eph 1:3-14 ESV] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 2:1-10 ESV] 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Ben1445]

Agreed. I only mentioned it as the one possible exception to “everyone accepts omniscience”.


Are you familiar with the argument raised by some that “born of water and spirit” in John 3 refers to “natural birth” (water being amniotic fluid) and “spiritual rebirth” (spirit being the Holy Spirit at our conversion)? There is a fundamental flaw with this interpretation of John 3 since it renders Jesus conversation with Nicodemus just a bit “nonsensical”. I mean the only human beings excluded from “born of water” if water means amniotic fluid are Adam and Eve. Is it really reasonable that Jesus wanted to make the point that Adam and Eve were excluded from entrance to the Kingdom of God? If not, then the very mention of the requirement to be “born of amniotic fluid” is a pointless distinction since it applies to EVERYONE. Why would Jesus even mention it?

I bring up this example of poor interpretation because your view of “foreknowledge” (in scripture) = “omniscience” suffers from the same condition. Why would anyone bother to mention it if God knows EVERYTHING? God elects the reprobate to eternal damnation based on his foreknowledge. God elects infants to die and people to recover from cancer based on his foreknowledge. What action happens that either “catches God by surprise” (omniscience failed and God did not see that coming) or that God did not ”plan” to happen (oops, that person was supposed to live and not be killed by a drunk driver … oh well, good thing God wrote eternity in pencil). Can you see the problem with equating SOMETHING that scripture thinks is important enough to mention (and called “Foreknew”) with general omniscience of facts (which God knows all facts, so that is hardly a special point related to “election” that needs to be mentioned). “Foreknew” must mean something more than “omniscience” just as “born of water” must mean something more than “natural birth” … or it required no mentioning.

I am not arguing against “free will” or for “hard determinism” … that is another issue and much harder. I am merely arguing against the “trivializing” of the word “foreknew” in scripture. It must mean SOMETHING worthy of being “God-breathed”.

It’s not trivial. It’s telling us that God has a plan for the believers. It tells us that God knows who they are. It tells us more of who God is. But knowing before hand is not the equivalent of making a decision for a believer to become one.

 

[Zaatar71]

Step into the NT and we’ll talk about the Greek words. It absolutely is on point. You haven’t taken the time to look at what I said and what I didn’t put in the post because nobody is going to look at over 200 verses in a post. Your attention span is not that long. I have already seen people say that they skip the long posts. I don’t think mine are any different. If you are interested, look up the use of the Greek words. All three that I mentioned. Every time. I did. When you have done that you can try to tell me I’m still wrong but you would be ignoring 99%of the uses because you wouldn’t be able to cram them into your preferred definition. It is no stretch of the word to say that “know” in Luke 1:34 is still informational in context and is actually a very polite way to not say what you are saying. This politeness in speech is something that is lacking in common conversation in the present day. I can see where it might lead someone to apply some extra meaning to it. Surely you are not implying that God is having a sexual relationship with believers. That is the context you keep pushing for.
I don’t agree that that is the context. I think it says just as much to say that Mary had no knowledge of any man.

I do not skip over long posts.
You do not have any idea of my attention span.
I am not talking about 99% of the uses, you are to avoid the issue
so lets resume the step by step to come to truth, let's not skip forward to Mary, step by step.

 

[Zaatar71]

Did you read my post in 54?

Yes I read it, but found you straying off, let's resume the step by step so you do not avoid what is at issue.

 

[Zaatar71]

You think God is unable to love the people that he judges?

Who said anything about that, this has nothing to do with the discussion

you don't think that the invitation given to the people by Noah was a good faith invitation? Noah was lying to them? Or God just wanted Noah to take on a 120 year carpentry project to kill time?

This has nothing to do with the discussion, it is poor assumptions on your part. You totally missed what i was saying

To say that we need to find foreknowledge of events and things is to look for something that isn't a highlight of Scripture in the first place.

You are not following the discussion

God's Word is concerned primarily with people and does not focus on being a fortune teller.

God has an eternal plan, that has nothing to do with fortune telling. Bringing in such a concept indicates you are avoiding the discussion at hand

Not surprisingly, there are none that have nothing to do with people. There are some that are speaking of events.

Here we will see your attempt to explain fails

1 Peter 1:19-21 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained (προγινώσκω proginṓskō verb) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

The discussion was not about foreordained events, but foreknown persons....you deflect to avoid the issue

Here is an event that was foreknown. That Jesus would be crucified.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge (πρόγνωσις prognosis feminine noun) of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Jesus as mediator and surety was who was foreknown to accomplish redemption by means of the cross, you still do not get it.Acts 2;23 starts with HIM, not what[the cross]

The events of the cross were preplanned events.

They were....the is the part foreordained, but Jesus is the foreknown one

Acts 26:1-5 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself: I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently. My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew (προγινώσκω proginṓskō verb) me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Here Paul says that all the Jews had knowledge of what person he was and the events of his past. They were his teachers and classmates in synagogue.

Have you ever done any research on the roots of this word. it is a simple word to break down.

προγινώσκω proginṓskō, prog-in-oce'-ko


from G4253 προ (a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior to) and G1097 γινώσκω (a prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know"); to know beforehand, i.e. foresee

You probably don't need to look ate the preposition. it is self explanatory. If you look at the root word, it will help to give you a better understanding of the words use.
since there are over 200 uses of that one tense, I will not list them here.
I will also say that even in the physical relationship sense, there is application of the definition in information. it sounds a little odd but it is far more discreet. Mary said that she has no knowledge of any man. it conveys the meaning without going into detail. It is also an accurate representation of the concept. I will finish with that because I have no desire to explain in any greater detail.

There is no use of the words in question that cannot be understood with the definition of knowledge of information rather than relationship. There are times when the reformed definition can be overlaid because the topics are related. that does not make it the right way to study.

you seek to avoid the issue with trying to obscure what we were discussing, that is why i did not respond to you the first time, but now you see why. Going step by step will show it
1: προορίζω
►
(Strong's #4309 — Verb — proorizo — pro-or-id'-zo )
see DETERMINE.

Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, "to foreknow;" the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." See FOREKNOW , A and B.

 

[Zaatar71]

Did you read my post in 54?

1] 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived

What does it mean when it says. Adam knew eve and she conceived.? what does The word know mean here?

 

[Ben1445]

Who said anything about that, this has nothing to do with the discussion

This has nothing to do with the discussion, it is poor assumptions on your part. You totally missed what i was saying

You are not following the discussion

God has an eternal plan, that has nothing to do with fortune telling. Bringing in such a concept indicates you are avoiding the discussion at hand

Here we will see your attempt to explain fails

The discussion was not about foreordained events, but foreknown persons....you deflect to avoid the issue

Jesus as mediator and surety was who was foreknown to accomplish redemption by means of the cross, you still do not get it.Acts 2;23 starts with HIM, not what[the cross]

They were....the is the part foreordained, but Jesus is the foreknown one

you seek to avoid the issue with trying to obscure what we were discussing, that is why i did not respond to you the first time, but now you see why. Going step by step will show it
1: προορίζω
►
(Strong's #4309 — Verb — proorizo — pro-or-id'-zo )
see DETERMINE.

Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, "to foreknow;" the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." See FOREKNOW , A and B.

Are we doing the definition of foreknow or predestinate?
Please stay on topic.
It will be impossible for you to understand the meaning of foreknow if you keep using the definition of predestinate.
Obscuring and avoiding is exactly what you are doing when you switch to your predestination teaching instead of addressing the thread topic of foreknowledge.

 

[Ben1445]

1] 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived

What does it mean when it says. Adam knew eve and she conceived.? what does The word know mean here?

Adam took knowledge of his wife. It is a polite way of saying became more familiar.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes I read it, but found you straying off, let's resume the step by step so you do not avoid what is at issue.

I’m not straying. Start a predestination thread if you feel the need to.

 

[Ben1445]

1] 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived

What does it mean when it says. Adam knew eve and she conceived.? what does The word know mean here?

In Hebrew, the word literally means “to know.” That is why they used the word know.

 

[Ben1445]

Gen. 4:1
And Adam knew (h3045. יָדַע yâḏa) Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD

Gen. 19:30-33
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived (h3045. יָדַע yâḏa) not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

It doesn’t mean he didn’t have a relationship. It means he had no idea, no information.

 

[Zaatar71]

Gen. 4:1
And Adam knew (h3045. יָדַע yâḏa) Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD

Gen. 19:30-33
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived (h3045. יָדַע yâḏa) not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

It doesn’t mean he didn’t have a relationship. It means he had no idea, no information.

Adam already had a "general knowledge about Eve.
.When it says....4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived...Do you think it was mental telepathy that caused her pregnacy, or perhaps physical marital intimacy?
This is why we need to go step by step!
Answer this in particular, then we will look at the next step, thanks

 

[Ben1445]

Adam already had a "general knowledge about Eve.
.When it says....4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived...Do you think it was mental telepathy that caused her pregnacy, or perhaps physical marital intimacy?
This is why we need to go step by step!
Answer this in particular, then we will look at the next step, thanks

I think that the way that intimacy was politely expressed was by the word know with the intent of knowledge.
If it meant sex, how is Lot the father of his grandchildren when it expressly says that he didn’t know his daughters?

 

[Zaatar71]

I think that the way that intimacy was politely expressed was by the word know with the intent of knowledge.
If it meant sex, how is Lot the father of his grandchildren when it expressly says that he didn’t know his daughters?

Well let's continue, Gen4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived...Same question. In this particular context...Did Cain have no idea who his wife was, or does the know here mean an intimate knowledge of her in particular?

 

[Ben1445]

Well let's continue, Gen4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived...Same question. In this particular context...Did Cain have no idea who his wife was, or does the know here mean an intimate knowledge of her in particular?

Did you not want to answer my question?

 

[Ben1445]

Did you not want to answer my question?

If you want to have a discussion, we can go back and forth. If you want to indoctrinate someone, go find someone who doesn’t want a conversation.
If you can’t answer the questions, you aren’t a good teacher. If you are constantly avoiding the questions, it’s obvious.

 

[Ben1445]

Well let's continue, Gen4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived...Same question. In this particular context...Did Cain have no idea who his wife was, or does the know here mean an intimate knowledge of her in particular?

Cain had knowledge of who his wife was. Lot didn’t know that that he was about to be a father again by his daughters.
But yes. You are right. Cain had full understanding of who his wife was.
Why is that too difficult to understand without adding meaning to it.

 

[Silverhair]

He chose G1586

of Christians, as those whom he has set apart from among the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: Mar_13:20; 1Co_1:27 f; with two accusatives, one of the object, the other of the predicate (Winer's Grammar, § 32, 4 b.), Jas_2:5; τινα ἐν Χριστῷ, so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits, followed by the accusative with an infinitive denoting the end, Eph_1:4.

@atpollard you suggested that ELECT (by definition) comes before repentance.

So let's look at the verses you posted to see if they do support your contention

Probably true of the adjective [G1588] ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; from G1586; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect. found in places like:

[Mat 22:14 ESV] 14 For many are called, but few are chosen."
[Mar 13:20 ESV] 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
[Luk 18:7 ESV] 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
[Rom 8:33 ESV] 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
[Col 3:12 ESV] 12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
[1Pe 1:1 ESV] 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

But none of those show that the person is elect/saved before they repent. They do not even suggest that. All we know is that the people are elect/saved.

However, even in this case, we also have verses that suggest other possibilities, like:

[2Ti 2:10 ESV] 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This is pointing to the final salvation when we Christians will be with Christ in heaven.

I believe so.
Let us examine the verb [G1586] ἐκλέγομαι eklégomai, ek-leg'-om-ahee; middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select:—make choice, choose (out), chosen. found in places like:

[Mar 13:20 ESV] 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
[Jhn 15:16, 19 ESV] 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. ... 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
[1Co 1:27-28 ESV] 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
[Eph 1:4 ESV] 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
[Jas 2:5 ESV] 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Again where do you see "elect" before repentance in these verses. You have to read that into the text.

Moving from a rigid fixation on semantics (the word "choose" or "chosen" or "elect" in English) and broadening our search to the CONCEPT of God as the monergistic "prime mover" in salvation, we can add this:

[Rom 8:26-30 ESV] 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Those that love God have logically repented. But being foreknow does not mean saved/elect.

Those that were foreknow were predestined to 1] be called via the gospel message 2] be justified because they repented and believed the gospel message and 3] will be finally glorified when they are with Christ in glory.

[Eph 1:3-14 ESV] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

As the text says we are chosen in Christ. God foreknows who will freely trust in His son. Knowing who will trust is not the same as the person trusting and one is only elect when they are in the "Elect one" Isaiah 42:1 But as we see in the text we have redemption through His blood but we see that only happens when we respond in faith. We hear then believe then we are saved. One must repent/change their mind about Christ before they are saved.

So again we do not see elect before repentance.

[Eph 2:1-10 ESV] 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

First we should note that we were all dead in our sins prior to our salvation.

Next we should thank God that we who have trusted in His son have by His grace been saved.

So then we have to ask why did He save us? The answer is because we believed in His son.

Why did we believe you may ask: answer Rom 1:16, Eph 1:13.

So after looking through all the verses that you posted it is clear that none support let alone clearly support your contention that election comes before repentance.

 

[Ben1445]

Well let's continue, Gen4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived...Same question. In this particular context...Did Cain have no idea who his wife was, or does the know here mean an intimate knowledge of her in particular?

The meaning that you are trying to add to the word know is not in the word know. That is why we are told about conception. It is because just knowing on its own doesn’t mean a relationship.