Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?

[Layman]

Brother @Silverhair asked me:

So when is one born again? Before or after they believe?
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
That is the question.

This is the answer.
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

I don’t necessarily disagree with what was stated. There is no doubt that the Philippian jailer became born-again after he believed. However, one thing that needs to be understood by my synergist friends is that the ability to believe had to be given to him as a gift. Those whom God has decided to save will experience a born-again transformation at the appointed time.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV) - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) - For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit

The Bible makes it clear where faith comes from and it is not something that we can simply choose to have for ourselves.

 

[37818]

No Holy Scripture teaches before faith.
Ephesians 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . .

 

[Martin Marprelate]

New Birth (7) The Order of the New Birth

John 3:5. ‘Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”‘The next question which might be asked concerning the New Birth is whether there is some process t…

marprelate.wordpress.com

 

[Layman]

No Holy Scripture teaches before faith.
Ephesians 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . .

We are predestined to be born-again in eternity past, but we don’t experience the new birth until a certain point in time.

 

[Silverhair]

Brother @Silverhair asked me:


I don’t necessarily disagree with what was stated. There is no doubt that the Philippian jailer became born-again after he believed. However, one thing that needs to be understood by my synergist friends is that the ability to believe had to be given to him as a gift. Those whom God has decided to save will experience a born-again transformation at the appointed time.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV) - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) - For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit

The Bible makes it clear where faith comes from and it is not something that we can simply choose to have for ourselves.

Actually by your last comment you have to disagree with what Paul said.
Paul told the jailer to believe but under the view you have posited he could not do that unless he was enabled to do so. It was not the jailer that could believe but God who had to essentially believe for him.

God had to determine who could or could not believe but since He desires all to come to faith then logically He would determine that all are able to believe but they have to choose to believe. Which is just what we see over and over in scripture, hear, believe, saved. That is the norm not an exception.

Philippians 1:29
Paul is speaking to believers telling them that if we faithfully represent Christ, our message and example affect us and others for good Act_5:41. We are to considered it a privilege to suffer for Christ.

2 Peter 1:1
Peter’s point is that the Gentile audience has been blessed with a salvation that is in no way inferior to that of the Jews. All who are saved by the grace of God enjoy equal acceptance before and access to God.

1 Corinthians 12:8-9
Paul is speaking to believers pointing out the various gifts that are received from the Holy Spirit. Paul is not speaking of faith to believe but faith that does not waver even under trial.

Yes the bible is clear as to where faith comes from, the individual. God does not give a person faith but He does expect people to respond to the various influences He has provided. Whether creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message,etc. that is why we are told we have no excuse.

But if we can only believe if God makes us believe which is what you are saying then those that do not believe and are condemned have the best excuse going, God did not make them believe. God did not give them faith.

 

[kyredneck]

We are predestined to be born-again in eternity past, but we don’t experience the new birth until a certain point in time.

It's literally 'born from above'. Born ‘again’, or ‘anew', breaks the continuity of how John consistently uses the word 'anothen' in other places, even in that very chapter a mere 24 verses later, AND, it caters to and appeases the free willer synergists in that it allows them wiggle room to claim having a part in it. 'Born from above' strongly denotes the truth that man is totally passive in the heavenly birth and it melds perfectly with all of John’s other ’born from above’ statements:

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT
if ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him
4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT

Christ addressed Nicodemus’s confusion; "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born"?:

6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

The entire dialog, yea the entire chapter, carries the tenor of heavenly things ‘from above’:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven; Jn 3

 

[Silverhair]

It's literally 'born from above'. Born ‘again’, or ‘anew', breaks the continuity of how John consistently uses the word 'anothen' in other places, even in that very chapter a mere 24 verses later, AND, it caters to and appeases the free willer synergists in that it allows them wiggle room to claim having a part in it. 'Born from above' strongly denotes the truth that man is totally passive in the heavenly birth and it melds perfectly with all of John’s other ’born from above’ statements:

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT
if ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him
4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT

Christ addressed Nicodemus’s confusion; "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born"?:

6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

The entire dialog, yea the entire chapter, carries the tenor of heavenly things ‘from above’:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven; Jn 3

KY have you ever had anyone say they save themselves, other than you of course.

Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son.

So those verses, KY, make you feel better but that is about all they will do.

 

[kyredneck]

KY have you ever had anyone say they save themselves, other than you of course.

Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son.

So those verses, KY, make you feel better but that is about all they will do.

As usual, more of your claptrap. I never mentioned the word 'save'. Where in the third chapter of John can the word 'sozo' [save] even be found?

 

[Silverhair]

As usual, more of your claptrap. I never mentioned the word 'save'. Where in the third chapter of John can the word 'sozo' [save] even be found?

So what does, born from above, begotten of God, born of the Spirit mean KY?

Just more of your claptrap KY. You do make a lot of odd comments.

 

[kyredneck]

So what does, born from above, begotten of God, born of the Spirit mean KY?

Among other things, it means of God, not of yourselves, or any other piece of flesh.

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT

[add]

You’ve no more say so in your spiritual birth than you did your physical birth.

 

[Layman]

Actually by your last comment you have to disagree with what Paul said.
Paul told the jailer to believe but under the view you have posited he could not do that unless he was enabled to do so. It was not the jailer that could believe but God who had to essentially believe for him.

In no way, shape, or form am I asserting that God believed for him. Yes, he did need to believe, but it was only because God gave him the ability to do so.

Philippians 1:29

2 Peter 1:1

1 Corinthians 12:8-9

No offense, but I do believe that you are interpreting the verses in question through a presupposed, synergistic lens. I understand the verses to plainly say what they mean - that faith is given. I don’t see any room for cooperation on our part.

 

[Silverhair]

Among other things, it means of God, not of yourselves, or any other piece of flesh.

who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT

[add]

You’ve no more say so in your spiritual birth than you did your physical birth.

The say so is the we trust in Christ. Read Eph 1:13, Rom 10:9, Eph 2:8-9 they may help you understand salvation better KY.

We do not save ourselves but God only saves those that believe in Him.

 

[Silverhair]

In no way, shape, or form am I asserting that God believed for him. Yes, he did need to believe, but it was only because God gave him the ability to do so.





No offense, but I do believe that you are interpreting the verses in question through a presupposed, synergistic lens. I understand the verses to plainly say what they mean - that faith is given. I don’t see any room for cooperation on our part.

@Layman you have not shown how you come to the conclusion that you have. The context of those verses do not support your view so I can only conclude that you are reading into them your philosophical view which comes from outside of scripture.

But you did not address the elephant in the room. According to your view God had to determine who could or could not believe but since He desires all to come to faith then logically He would determine that all are able to believe but they have to choose to believe. Which is just what we see over and over in scripture, hear, believe, saved. That is the norm not an exception.

You also say God does not believe for them but that is just what you are saying. If they cannot believe unless He, to use your words, gives them the ability to believe then He is believing for them indirectly but it is still Him doing it.

And another point, is it not your theological view that says God has to give them faith to believe after they are irresistibly drawn? So again God believing for them.

 

[Charlie24]

Brother @Silverhair asked me:


I don’t necessarily disagree with what was stated. There is no doubt that the Philippian jailer became born-again after he believed. However, one thing that needs to be understood by my synergist friends is that the ability to believe had to be given to him as a gift. Those whom God has decided to save will experience a born-again transformation at the appointed time.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV) - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) - For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit

The Bible makes it clear where faith comes from and it is not something that we can simply choose to have for ourselves.

Paul said in Eph. 1:13 that after we believed we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

I think we would all agree, or should, that receiving the Holy Spirit is the exact moment of our salvation.

 

[Zaatar71]

Paul said in Eph. 1:13 that after we believed we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

I think we would all agree, or should, that receiving the Holy Spirit is the exact moment of our salvation.

Eph 1, does not start at vs.13. Eph.1 :3-14 is one sentence, it should be read as it is written.

 

[Zaatar71]

Brother @Silverhair asked me:


I don’t necessarily disagree with what was stated. There is no doubt that the Philippian jailer became born-again after he believed. However, one thing that needs to be understood by my synergist friends is that the ability to believe had to be given to him as a gift. Those whom God has decided to save will experience a born-again transformation at the appointed time.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV) - For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) - Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 12:8-9 (ESV) - For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit

The Bible makes it clear where faith comes from and it is not something that we can simply choose to have for ourselves.

Regeneration and saving faith happen at the same point in time.

 

[Charlie24]

Eph 1, does not start at vs.13. Eph.1 :3-14 is one sentence, it should be read as it is written.

Nothing can be changed from what I pointed out by backing up and reading all of it.

But I do agree it should all be taken together. I just cut to the point.

 

[Layman]

Regeneration and saving faith happen at the same point in time.

I know, I’m speaking of how we experience that in time. It’s the whole “now and not yet” idea.

 

[Charlie24]

I know, I’m speaking of how we experience that in time. It’s the whole “now and not yet” idea.

It all happens by sharing the Gospel with the Holy Spirit convicting of sin in the heart of the hearer.

Whether during preaching in a Church service or you sharing the Gospel somewhere on the street, the Holy Spirit uses that Gospel message there on the spot, piercing the heart with the truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Layman]

According to your view God had to determine who could or could not believe but since He desires all to come to faith then logically He would determine that all are able to believe but they have to choose to believe. Which is just what we see over and over in scripture, hear, believe, saved. That is the norm not an exception.

I agree that we hear, believe, and are saved, but the Bible also makes it clear that not every person without exception has the ability to believe after hearing. If He desires that all would come to faith, then logically they would. Are you saying that God isn't powerful enough to override someone's unbelief?

You also say God does not believe for them but that is just what you are saying. If they cannot believe unless He, to use your words, gives them the ability to believe then He is believing for them indirectly but it is still Him doing it.

You have to ask yourself why some people believe and others do not. I can use the same argument against you and say that God indirectly causes the lost to be forever damned if they reject the Gospel by their own free will. He could simply save them anyway, but He doesn't. By default, everyone is headed for damnation, and God would be just for leaving it at that. He shows mercy to some and not others. Is God wrong to do it that way?