TULIP - Which of the 5 points to subscribe to?

[Salty]

So where do you stand on the C vs A?

Five Points of Calvinism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Please do not add any additional resonses
(you can always start your own poll)

 

[kyredneck]

5 pointer here.

 

[JonC]

I'm in neither camp (not C or A).

 

[David Lamb]

So where do you stand on the C vs A?

Five Points of Calvinism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Please do not add any additional resonses
(you can always start your own poll)

I ticked all 5, but it's important to make sure the 5 Points are understood. I have been involved in several threads where non-Calvinists claim (for example) that "Limited Atonement" must mean that Calvinists believe only a few people are saved, or that "Irresistible Grace" makes us into robots.

 

[Charlie24]

I've only found Total Depravity to be in Scripture.

The other 4 are a theory gone bad.

 

[Silverhair]

I ticked all 5, but it's important to make sure the 5 Points are understood. I have been involved in several threads where non-Calvinists claim (for example) that "Limited Atonement" must mean that Calvinists believe only a few people are saved, or that "Irresistible Grace" makes us into robots.

There in lays the problem for calvinism, TULIP is understood by those that reject it. Those that hold to it have to ignore the damage that it does to the character of God.

Under Calvinism
God unconditionally chooses to only save some, but not all,
God limits the atonement of Christs’ death to that select few and
God gives irresistible grace to those that are the fortunate elect.
If you do not meet any of these conditions then you are doomed from the start.
Calvinism says this brings glory to God. How? Does this show justice? NO. What is shows is raw despotic power which is just the opposite of what that bible tells us about God.

But what does the bible tell us
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:10
To get the full impact of that verse read Rom_5:1-11

God is love 1Jn_4:8 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Ti_2:4 so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom_3:26

Which doctrinal system is really most likely to give rise to pride and boasting:
The system that says anyone can come and be saved.
or
The system that says only the chosen ones given a special unique gift of grace can come and be saved.

 

[atpollard]

I'm in neither camp (not C or A).

Technically, that was not the question.

Irrespective of C or A, do you believe Salvation can be lost?
That places you on YES or NO to "(P)reservation of the Saints"

 

[JonC]

Technically, that was not the question.

Irrespective of C or A, do you believe Salvation can be lost?
That places you on YES or NO to "(P)reservation of the Saints"

True. My answer is I hold none of the "Five Points" (I'm a zero pointer ).

I am assuming we are talking about the "Five Points of Calvinism" that are a summary of the Canons of Dort (in response to the Five Articles).

I believe that aoart from the work of the Spirit nobody will come to Christ and we do not earn our salvation.

I do believe that Christ is God's Elect chosen before the foundation of the World, and when we are "in Christ" we are a part of this Body ("the Elect").

I believe that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the Whole World, that He died for all of mankind and to save those who would believe.

I believe that man constantly resists God's will, and in this life even believers struggle with this resistance, but that God will accomplish His purposes.

I believe that those who believe are given eternal life (not temporary life) and those who endure until the end will be saved, that we are in Christ saved from the wrath to come.

 

[37818]

I do not believe in the Calvinists' TULIP.

I believe mankind has a fallen sin nature.

I believe election is conditional.

I believe 1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I believe the perishing resist God's grace.

And God keeps those whom He saves.

 

[JesusFan]

I ticked all 5, but it's important to make sure the 5 Points are understood. I have been involved in several threads where non-Calvinists claim (for example) that "Limited Atonement" must mean that Calvinists believe only a few people are saved, or that "Irresistible Grace" makes us into robots.

Good point, as many times those who are very strongest against those doctrines will either misunderstand what we believe what they mean, or else will make a strawman up to rail against

 

[JesusFan]

True. My answer is I hold none of the "Five Points" (I'm a zero pointer ).

I am assuming we are talking about the "Five Points of Calvinism" that are a summary of the Canons of Dort (in response to the Five Articles).

I believe that aoart from the work of the Spirit nobody will come to Christ and we do not earn our salvation.

I do believe that Christ is God's Elect chosen before the foundation of the World, and when we are "in Christ" we are a part of this Body ("the Elect").

I believe that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the Whole World, that He died for all of mankind and to save those who would believe.

I believe that man constantly resists God's will, and in this life even believers struggle with this resistance, but that God will accomplish His purposes.

I believe that those who believe are given eternal life (not temporary life) and those who endure until the end will be saved, that we are in Christ saved from the wrath to come.

So to clarifiy, you would hold to sinners can resist saving grace, and that individual are not elected and chosen individually, but are elected and chosen once saved into the body?

 

[Silverhair]

Good point, as many times those who are very strongest against those doctrines will either misunderstand what we believe what they mean, or else will make a strawman up to rail against

Actually we just use the words of calvinists to show the error of that philosophy.

So if you think it is a strawman argument then it comes from your our teachers.

 

[JesusFan]

Actually we just use the words of calvinists to show the error of that philosophy.

So if you think it is a strawman argument then it comes from your our teachers.

No, those against it have at times lumped Hypers and Calvinists as same, as I noticed that you seem to be against Hyper Calvinism mainly

 

[Jerome]

The TULIP contrivance was devised by Rev. Cleland Boyd McAfee of Lafayette Ave. Presbyterian Church in New York City, in 1905.

McAfee is also infamous for defending apostate missionary Pearl Buck!

Associated Press, April 18, 1933

Dr. Cleland B. McAfee, secretary of the Presbyterian Board of Foreign Missions, said Monday he believed the case of Mrs. Pearl S. Buck could be settled by an informal talk with her in the near future. Mrs. Buck, missionary and novelist, has been charged by some members of the denomination with holding doctrinal views not in accord with those of the church.

"I see no reason why everything should not be cleared up by a conversation," Dr. McAfee said. He declared Mrs. Buck had not been ordered to appear before the board's meeting to date and expressed a doubt that the body even would consider her case.

Calling the missionary, who is associated with her husband in work at Nanking University, China. "a very fine Christian worker," Dr. McAfee said Dr. J. Gresham Machen, of Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, who is preparing an overture to the Presbyterian general assembly asking for Mrs. Buck's removal, "has long been known as a critic of the board of foreign missions."

 

[Salty]

True. My answer is I hold none of the "Five Points" (I'm a zero pointer ).

Jon, I don't know if you remember that BB member who believed in all 6 points (yes six!)
and no, I do not remember what # 6 was.

 

[JonC]

So to clarifiy, you would hold to sinners can resist saving grace, and that individual are not elected and chosen individually, but are elected and chosen once saved into the body?

I hold that all men resist God by nature as their minds are set on the flesh.
I do not hold an opinion about how God elects. I think it is better to take Scripture for what is stated in Scripture.

I think that I cannot understand the mind of God apart from what He has revealed in His Word, so I have learned to leave the theories and philosophies alone. It's difficult because I like philosophy, but having been cautioned against such in Scripture I have to check myself.

 

[JonC]

Jon, I don't know if you remember that BB member who believed in all 6 points (yes six!)
and no, I do not remember what # 6 was.

Lol....John Piper believed in all 7 points (he added double-predestination and we are living in the best of possible worlds).

 

[atpollard]

Jon, I don't know if you remember that BB member who believed in all 6 points (yes six!)
and no, I do not remember what # 6 was.

#6. All true Calvinists believe all 5 points of TULIP! [a variation on "No true Scotsman" ... since Scotsmen are Reformed!]

 

[Layman]

Jon, I don't know if you remember that BB member who believed in all 6 points (yes six!)
and no, I do not remember what # 6 was.

I’ve heard of STULIP… S for Sovereignty.

 

[Layman]

Lol....John Piper believed in all 7 points (he added double-predestination and we are living in the best of possible worlds).

That last point sounds an awful lot like molinism.