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Universal Atonement With Limited Atonement

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Folks, read 1 John 2:2. Did Christ become the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity?

Folks, read 2 Thessalonians 2:13, does God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth?

Pay no attention to posters who simply proclaim this or that but cannot even cite a single verse that actually supports their false doctrines.
Its too late now, you have degraded the death of Christ, for it has completely reconciled them He died for to God. In fact the word reconciled in Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

That word is apokatallassō:

  1. to reconcile completely
  2. to reconcile back again
  3. bring back a former state of harmony
He reconciles them COMPLETELY and HOW ? "In the body of his flesh through death, "

And you friend flat out deny this Truth, you fight against it, so you are fighting against Christ and His Truth, you know the outcome of that, dont you ?
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Van

Folks, read 2 Thessalonians 2:13, does God choose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth?

No thats False teaching, God chose a people to salvation which consist in Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth,

They are saved from the lies of the antichrist teachers and preachers spoken of in Vs 10-12


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now He switches with a BUT and writes to the elect 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God will not suffer His chosen ones to die in lies and unbelief.
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Was the Jewish High Priest Offering for all the world or limited to a chosen People ?
Greetings to you Brightfame. May grace and hope be multiplied in your life.

I suppose we have two options when it comes to the Old Testament. Either (A) the Jewish story was "shadows", illustrations, and a microcosm of the body of Christ only, (B) or the Jewish story was "shadows", illustrations, and a microcosm of the world as a whole. I tend to think it is the latter.

For example, many think the Egypt story, which is actual history, is also communicating the symbolism for mankind (the Jews trying to leave) the enslavement to sin (Pharaoh and the Egyptians), then being washed clean (baptized by the Spirit) of sin (by the Red Sea crashing down on the Egyptians).

Now, is this symbolism for all mankind or symbolism for only the body of Christ? If we say, the body of Christ only then we run into a problem. The problem is that not all the people coming out of Egypt that crossed the Red Sea, that were being led by Moses, were godly. In Exodus 32 we find that many of the the people committed a "great sin" (Ex 32:31) and worshiped a golden calf... AND ... in Exodus 32:31, about 3000 were purged (killed) from the group that were not "on God's side" (they chose not to come to Moses when Moses said all those on God's side some over here).

In other words, not all the people who came out of Egypt with Moses, even though they might be Jew or not, were not God's. Yet, the symbolism of washing them clean by the Red Sea was the same.

Additionally, Paul tells us in Romans 9:7-8 that not all the "children of the flesh" are also the "children of God". In other words, not all Jews are God's. This lines up very nicely with the Exodus story I just described, that is, that not all the people that came out of Egypt were God's.

So now we get back to your question,
Was the Jewish High Priest Offering for all the world or limited to a chosen People ?
The Jewish High Priest was offering sacrifice for ALL Jews (which is a microcosm of the world). It is a microcosm of the world because as I have just shown, not all the Jews were God's. Not in the Exodus story nor within the Jewish people. Remember, not all the "children of the flesh" are the "children of promise". So the High Priest was making a sacrifice for "all" not just some.

But my point of the OP is that even though the High Priest was making a sacrifice for the sin of "all" (once a year). Still, each individual Jew had to additionally come and bring a sacrifice for their individual sin. So a sacrifice was being done for all and then additionally a sacrifice was being done individually by only some.

It is my contention that this sacrifice for "all" is symbolism for what Christ did for all (making it sufficient). And the Individual sacrifices is what Christ did for only some (making it efficacious).

Peace to you brother
 

Paleouss

Active Member
The role of the High Priest was to offer atonement for the nation’s sins as a whole. The individual sacrifices were necessary for personal transgressions and to demonstrate responsibility and repentance.
Greetings Layman. Hope and peace to you and yours.

Do you think that the OT illustrations are symbols and shadows of the whole world? Because not all the children of the flesh are also the children of the promise.

Keep seeking God's truth
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Paleouss

The Jewish High Priest was offering sacrifice for ALL Jews (which is a microcosm of the world). It is a microcosm of the world because as I have just shown, not all the Jews were God's. Not in the Exodus story nor within the Jewish people. Remember, not all the "children of the flesh" are the "children of promise". So the High Priest was making a sacrifice for "all" not just some.

So Gods world that He redeems is the world of the Elect, the world of His Chosen People, Israel National was a Shadow/Type. See the world of the elect is comprised of all nations/gentiles, however its still a particular people seperated from the rest of mankind. The High Priest was strictly for Israel, even the garments and the things he wore when in the Holy of Holies was for only a chosen people. You cant destroy the type friend.
 

Paleouss

Active Member
@Paleouss



So Gods world that He redeems is the world of the Elect, the world of His Chosen People, Israel National was a Shadow/Type. See the world of the elect is comprised of all nations/gentiles, however its still a particular people seperated from the rest of mankind. The High Priest was strictly for Israel, even the garments and the things he wore when in the Holy of Holies was for only a chosen people. You cant destroy the type friend.
Greetings again Brightfame.

I see what you are saying, I think. However, I don't know what you think about what I said. Specifically, what I said about not all Jews are of the promise (Romans 9:7-8).

Do you believe that all Jews are Saints?

The High Priest was making a sacrifice for sin for all Jews (The Day of Atonement (Lev 16:21-22, Heb 9:7), also known as Yom Kippur.)

Peace to you brother
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Greetings again Brightfame.

I see what you are saying, I think. However, I don't know what you think about what I said. Specifically, what I said about not all Jews are of the promise (Romans 9:7-8).

Do you believe that all Jews are Saints?

The High Priest was making a sacrifice for sin for all Jews (The Day of Atonement (Lev 16:21-22, Heb 9:7), also known as Yom Kippur.)

Peace to you brother
It was a type and shadow. The jewish nation was a type and shadow of the Church. The Church is Gods chosen world, as typified by the nation of israel in the OT. No all jews are not saints, a stupid question. Its always a remnant, a chosen remnant out of the jews, a chosen remnant out of the Gentiles, both Chosen remnants = the Church, Chosen Israel which Christ is their High Priest.
 

Paleouss

Active Member
No all jews are not saints,
Thank you Brightfame.

If all Jews are not Saints... then why was God's law that the High Priest make a sacrifice for all Jews on the Day of Atonement? (Lev 16:21-22, Heb 9:7), also known as Yom Kippur).

It doesn't say, make sacrifice for only those Jews of the promise.

a stupid question
I don't think there is ever any stupid questions. Let those that seek God's truth ask (Prov 2).


Peace to you brother
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Its too late now, you have degraded the death of Christ, for it has completely reconciled them He died for to God. In fact the word reconciled in Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

That word is apokatallassō:

  1. to reconcile completely
  2. to reconcile back again
  3. bring back a former state of harmony
He reconciles them COMPLETELY and HOW ? "In the body of his flesh through death, "

And you friend flat out deny this Truth, you fight against it, so you are fighting against Christ and His Truth, you know the outcome of that, dont you ?
On and on, obfuscation after obfuscation. Everyone saved, transferred spiritually into Christ, has been, past tense, reconciled. For this poster to not know this par for the course. Note no mention of the verses that say God is reconciling, not has reconciled, the world, humanity. Nope, that verse does not support the false doctrine being advocated endlessly.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@Van

No thats False teaching, God chose a people to salvation which consist in Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth,

They are saved from the lies of the antichrist teachers and preachers spoken of in Vs 10-12


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now He switches with a BUT and writes to the elect 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God will not suffer His chosen ones to die in lies and unbelief.
On and on, false claim after false claim.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen through (Greek "en" used to show instrumentality) sanctification by the Spirit ( God setting the person apart into Christ) and through (based on crediting their) faith in the truth.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
On and on, obfuscation after obfuscation. Everyone saved, transferred spiritually into Christ, has been, past tense, reconciled. For this poster to not know this par for the course. Note no mention of the verses that say God is reconciling, not has reconciled, the world, humanity. Nope, that verse does not support the false doctrine being advocated endlessly.
Now you just talking unreasonably crazy. How were they reconciled according to Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, t
o present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Now you just talking unreasonably crazy. How were they reconciled according to Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, t
o present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
On and on, obfuscation after obfuscation. Everyone saved, transferred spiritually into Christ, has been, past tense, reconciled. For this poster to not know this par for the course. Note no mention of the verses that say God is reconciling, not has reconciled, the world, humanity. Nope, that verse does not support the false doctrine being advocated endlessly.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
On and on, false claim after false claim.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen through (Greek "en" used to show instrumentality) sanctification by the Spirit ( God setting the person apart into Christ) and through (based on crediting their) faith in the truth.
, God chose a people to salvation which consist in Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth, See 2 Thess 2:13
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
On and on, obfuscation after obfuscation. Everyone saved, transferred spiritually into Christ, has been, past tense, reconciled. For this poster to not know this par for the course. Note no mention of the verses that say God is reconciling, not has reconciled, the world, humanity. Nope, that verse does not support the false doctrine being advocated endlessly.
No everyone isnt saved, only the saved are saved duh the lost arent saved duh
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
, God chose a people to salvation which consist in Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth, See 2 Thess 2:13
God chooses people for salvation as He is reconciling the world to Himself.

1) God is reconciling. False teachers deny this fundamental truth.
2 Corinthians 5:19-20
In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people's trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His plea through us. We plead with you on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God!"​






Unchecked Copy Box
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No everyone isnt saved, only the saved are saved duh the lost arent saved duh
Again, here the false claim is made that I said or suggested that everyone is saved, rather than the truth, I said everyone God transfers into Christ is saved.

This is all they have, name calling, and misrepresentation.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
God chooses people for salvation as He is reconciling the world to Himself.

1) God is reconciling. False teachers deny this fundamental truth.
2 Corinthians 5:19-20​
In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people's trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.​
Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His plea through us. We plead with you on Christ's behalf, "Be reconciled to God!"​






Unchecked Copy Box
The salvation they were chosen to in this context, is Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth. Its a spiritual salvation.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Again, here the false claim is made that I said or suggested that everyone is saved, rather than the truth, I said everyone God transfers into Christ is saved.

This is all they have, name calling, and misrepresentation.
Only the saved are saved. You cant include the lost with the saved. The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is saved, reconciled, so how in Gods Green Earth can this world include them lost in their sins ? Duh
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The salvation they were chosen to in this context, is Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth. Its a spiritual salvation.
They were chosen for salvation by the Spirit setting them apart in Christ based on God crediting their faith, not some imaginary given faith, as righteousness.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Only the saved are saved. You cant include the lost with the saved. The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is saved, reconciled, so how in Gods Green Earth can this world include them lost in their sins ? Duh
More complete misrepresentation from a professing Christian. The only person claiming the lost are included with the saved is the one making false statements. God word says we are to beg the lost to be reconciled, which makes to sense if they had no opportunity to be reconciled. Your doctrines are all false, unbiblical relics from the dark ages.
 
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