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May A Woman Pastor?
- Thread starter OLD SARGE
- Start date
Not in a Baptist Church
You would be surprised how many Baptist churches have a female pastor!
Still waiting though upon biblical support for women as Pastors or elders in the local church
Look for one and ask her.
Though I do remember asking a male pastor about that once - and he said something about not taking that verse literarily.
There is no support for women pastors or elders (as an office). But there is support for women as deacons (my objection would be that our view of deacons is often different from the Biblical use).
yes, as was not Phoebe stated to be a Deaconess?
Had one tell me that she thought that God had called a Man to be the Pastor, but since he refused she had to step up, but since her Ftarher had founded the church, think more like passing on the pulpit to her oncxe he stepped down
Was that a cultural mandate?Are all your women silent in church?
[Just testing consistency of hermeneutics.]
No. She was stated to be a deacon!
37818
Well-Known Member
Romans 16:1, I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
. . . διακονον . . . . Deconess.
How is it set up in your church the offices, as we have Pastors and Elders, and deacons are those involved in the "business" side of the church functioning and operating
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Personally, I look at the context ...
Corinth was the church that had "jumped the shark". So Paul was adressing a church where women were exercising their freedom in Christ to stand up in the middle of a service where someone that KNEW something was talking, and not allow their ignorance on the subject to stop them from disrupting the assembly with questions and talking that devolved into chaos. [remember, this is the same group where "prophets" had to be told to speak "one at a time"].
Paul's advice was for loud, disruptive women to "sit down and shut up and stop interrupting the gathering".
However, I never made any claims about what women were allowed to do in any and every church.
Priscilia helped train Apollos.
There were "deaconess" and prophetess".
There were "older women teaching the younger women".
And somewhere, into all that, fits "For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body." - Ephesians 5:23 [NKJV]
OLD SARGE
Member
And they would be heretical and as John MacArthur would say they do not have a pastor.
OLD SARGE
Member
Not sure you can 100% prove it was only to women who make a disturbance though that may have prompted the need to say to be silent as so says the Law.Personally, I look at the context ...
Corinth was the church that had "jumped the shark". So Paul was adressing a church where women were exercising their freedom in Christ to stand up in the middle of a service where someone that KNEW something was talking, and not allow their ignorance on the subject to stop them from disrupting the assembly with questions and talking that devolved into chaos. [remember, this is the same group where "prophets" had to be told to speak "one at a time"].
Paul's advice was for loud, disruptive women to "sit down and shut up and stop interrupting the gathering".
However, I never made any claims about what women were allowed to do in any and every church.
Priscilia helped train Apollos.
There were "deaconess" and prophetess".
There were "older women teaching the younger women".
And somewhere, into all that, fits "For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body." - Ephesians 5:23 [NKJV]
What did Priscilla say or do neither side of the argument can claim because we are not told.
Actually, the wives of a deacon were called that just as the wife of a prophet was called a prophetess though neither women held the office of deacon or had the gift of a prophet. Prophet was also used of a singer or poet or ascribed to anyone considered inspired. Deborah sang as did Mary and in those moments they were a prophetess.
Yes, the older women taught the younger women with the curriculum given in that passage. They were not pastors or biblical teachers as the word for teach in 1 Tim is different that the one in Titus.
Note that the only woman that taught and called a prophetess in the NT was Jezebel.
A woman pastor destroys the analogy of Christ and the Church since He is male and the Bride female.
Note that the first false doctrine was created by a woman.
Note that some of the greatest heretics in this age are women.
Pentecost started with men. Pentacostalism started with a woman being the first to speak in tongues at Azuza.
More women are "carried away" by false doctrine than men though men are far from exempt.
Woudl not say heretical, but would say they are against the clear teaching of Scripture regarding Male headship and leadership
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I can demonstrate it by a “preponderance of the evidence” if required to do so, however …
What “Law” forbids a woman to speak?
OLD SARGE
Member
Still, if a woman is not to preach she is not to preach.
You will have to ask Paul that.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence ... - This rule is positive, explicit, and universal. There is no ambiguity in the expressions; and there can be no difference of opinion, one would suppose, in regard to their meaning. The sense evidently is, that in all those things which he had specified, the women were to keep silence; they were to take no part. He had discoursed of speaking foreign languages, and of prophecy; and the evident sense is, that in regard to all these they were to keep silence, or were not to engage in them. These pertained solely to the male portion of the congregation. These things constituted the business of the public teaching; and in this the female part of the congregation were to be silent. “They were not to teach the people, nor were they to interrupt those who were speaking” - Rosenmuller. It is probable that, on pretence of being inspired, the women had assumed the office of public teachers.
In 1 Cor. 11, Paul had argued against their doing this in a certain manner - without their veils 1Co_11:4, and he had shown, that “on that account,” and “in that manner,” it was improper for them to assume the office of public teachers, and to conduct the devotions of the church. The force of the argument in 1 Cor. 11: is, that what he there states would be a sufficient reason against the practice, even if there were no other. It was contrary to all decency and propriety that they should appear “in that manner” in public. He here argues against the practice on every ground; forbids it altogether; and shows that on every consideration it was to be regarded as improper for them even so much as “to ask a question” in time of public service. There is, therefore, no inconsistency between the argument in 1 Cor. 11: and the statement here; and the force of the whole is, that “on every consideration” it was improper, and to be expressly prohibited, for women to conduct the devotions of the church. It does not refer to those only who claimed to be inspired, but to all; it does not refer merely to acts of public preaching, but to all acts of speaking, or even asking questions, when the church is assembled for public worship. No rule in the New Testament is more positive than this; and however plausible may be the reasons which may be urged for disregarding it, and for suffering women to take part in conducting public worship, yet the authority of the apostle Paul is positive, and his meaning cannot be mistaken; compare 1Ti_2:11-12.
To be under obedience - To be subject to their husbands; to acknowledge the superior authority of the man; see the note at 1Co_11:3.
As also saith the law - Gen_3:16, “And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” Albert Barnes
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that “a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.” And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, “Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.” This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co_11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.
But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.
But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Gen_3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit. Adam Clarke
1 Corinthians 14:34
(15) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
(15) Women are commanded to be silent in public assemblies, and they are commanded to ask of their husbands at home. Geneva
1 Corinthians 14:34
(1Ti_2:11, 1Ti_2:12). For women to speak in public would be an act of independence, as if they were not subject to their husbands (compare 1Co_11:3; Eph_5:22; Tit_2:5; 1Pe_3:1). For “under obedience,” translate, “in subjection” or “submission,” as the Greek is translated (Eph_5:21, Eph_5:22, Eph_5:24).
the law — a term applied to the whole Old Testament; here, Gen_3:16. Jamison Fausset Brown