The Orthodox church has the seniority

[rockytopva]

Photo says it all!

 

[JonC]

Of existing denominations both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the oldest continuing (ignoring when each transformed into something different....then I'd say the Orthodox).

We don't know of the churches that existed prior to the Catholic Church. They could also have existed in congregations apart from the Catholic denomination (there was a good 4 centuries before the Catholic Church), but if so we have no evidence other than congregations existed).

 

[rockytopva]

The Primary Chronicle reports that in the year 987, after consultation with his boyars, Russian leader Vladimir the Great sent envoys to study the religions of the various neighboring nations whose representatives had been urging him to embrace their respective faiths. The result is described by the chronicler Nestor. Of the Muslim Bulgarians of the Volga the envoys reported there is no gladness among them, only sorrow and a great stench. He also reported that Islam was undesirable due to its taboo against alcoholic beverages and pork. Vladimir remarked on the occasion: "Drinking is the joy of all Rus'. We cannot exist without that pleasure." Ukrainian and Russian sources also describe Vladimir consulting with Jewish envoys, and questioning them about their religion but ultimately rejecting it as well, saying that their loss of Jerusalem was evidence that they had been abandoned by God. His emissaries also visited Roman Catholic and Orthodox missionaries. Ultimately Vladimir settled on Orthodox Christianity. In the churches of the Germans his emissaries saw no beauty; but at Constantinople, where the full festival ritual of the Byzantine Church was set in motion to impress them, they found their ideal: "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth," they reported, describing a majestic Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia, "nor such beauty, and we know not how to tell of it."

 

[JonC]

The Primary Chronicle reports that in the year 987, after consultation with his boyars, Russian leader Vladimir the Great sent envoys to study the religions of the various neighboring nations whose representatives had been urging him to embrace their respective faiths. The result is described by the chronicler Nestor. Of the Muslim Bulgarians of the Volga the envoys reported there is no gladness among them, only sorrow and a great stench. He also reported that Islam was undesirable due to its taboo against alcoholic beverages and pork. Vladimir remarked on the occasion: "Drinking is the joy of all Rus'. We cannot exist without that pleasure." Ukrainian and Russian sources also describe Vladimir consulting with Jewish envoys, and questioning them about their religion but ultimately rejecting it as well, saying that their loss of Jerusalem was evidence that they had been abandoned by God. His emissaries also visited Roman Catholic and Orthodox missionaries. Ultimately Vladimir settled on Orthodox Christianity. In the churches of the Germans his emissaries saw no beauty; but at Constantinople, where the full festival ritual of the Byzantine Church was set in motion to impress them, they found their ideal: "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth," they reported, describing a majestic Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia, "nor such beauty, and we know not how to tell of it."

That is interesting, but kinda sad at the same time.

 

[Cathode]

Of existing denominations both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the oldest continuing (ignoring when each transformed into something different....then I'd say the Orthodox).

We don't know of the churches that existed prior to the Catholic Church. They could also have existed in congregations apart from the Catholic denomination (there was a good 4 centuries before the Catholic Church), but if so we have no evidence other than congregations existed).

There was no Church prior to the Catholic Church.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

At Antioch believers were first called Christians and this disciple of John, Bishop of Antioch called the Church Catholic.

We know only a singular Church which is called Catholic from the earliest times, even though locations are different.

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

Polycarp (69 AD-155 AD ) was bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna, so we aren’t seeing the term Catholic being used in just some universal sense but a local and specific sense as well.
So it’s a Catholic Church in Smyrna, like a Catholic Church in Boston.

Interesting that the term Catholic Church is used in association with two direct disciples of John the Apostle. Both Bishops of their Churches, one in Antioch and one in Smyrna and both are Catholic.

We can see Bishop Irenaeus indicates the same thing.

“while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

We also see Tertullian get real specific with the term “Catholic Church.”

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

“and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus.”

Three things we notice here.

So doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the Church of Rome, under the episcopate Eleutherus.

And this is Tertullian referring to 30-40 years earlier.

“And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

It would be wise to listen to this ancient Bishop of Jerusalem, the same phenomenon occurs today. I asked at an Orthodox Church where the Catholic Church was, and they showed it was 3 kilometres away.

Orthodox claim to be Catholic, though they no longer bear that ancient name.

“And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.” Augustine, Mani (397 AD )

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the one church is made of seven generalized congregations....

1. Ephesus - Messianic
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

Seven candlesticks - Seven generalized congregation - All unique one to another
Seven seals - Those names written in the Lambs Book of Life
Seven stars - Those messengers to the congregations

So... Who is saved? Who are the good Catholics? Who are the right Protestants? Who are the revived Philadelphians? Who in Laodicea took their materialism too far? Who are the good wheat? Who are the unsaved tares?

Regarding the Lamb's Book of Life... Sealed with seven seals...
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Revelation 5

The answer is... We do not know! We are not worthy to open the Lamb's Book of Life to see who is where! All we can do is wait for the lamb to open the book of life and see who went where!

Having come from a Sardis (a gem... something beautiful) church age denomination, in which everyone went to church dressed up... I marvel on how sloppy people are getting these days.

 

[rockytopva]

Constantinople fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks. There were no Christian people who cared to rise up to their defense. Byzantine emperor Constantine XI appealed to Westen Europe for help to no avail. Because the Orthodox empire refused to accept the Roman Catholic religion the Roman Catholics just let it fall. Which was a huge blow for Christendom.

Mehmed II allowed his troops to plunder the city for three days, during which multitudes of civilians were massacred and enslaved. There was raping, massacring and pillaging according to the English historian John Julius Norwich and byzantinist Alexander Vasiliev. Soldiers fought over the possession of some of the spoils of war. According to the Venetian surgeon Nicolo Barbaro "all through the day the Turks made a great slaughter of Christians through the city".

 

[rockytopva]

I am glad to see the Pope extending a hand of friendship to the Orthodox church... "After centuries of disagreements and misunderstanding, the resumption of genuine dialogue between the sister Churches of Rome and Constantinople was made possible through courageous and farsighted steps taken by Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras. Their venerable successors to the Sees of Rome and Constantinople have pursued with conviction the same path of reconciliation, thus further strengthening our close relations. Here I would like to mention the witness of sincere closeness to the Catholic Church given by the Ecumenical Patriarch, His All Holiness Bartholomew, by his personal participation in the funeral of the late Pope Francis, and again at the Mass inaugurating my Pontificate."

Noting... The Pope mentioning the Orthodox and Catholic as "sister churches" in which he was correct in stating....

Pope Leo XIV Hails ‘Profound Communion Already Existing’ Between Churches of Constantinople and Rome

On Saturday, June 28, 2025, His Holiness Pope Leo XIV of Rome welcomed a delegation from the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Vatican celebrate the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul, Patrons of the Church of Rome. Leading the delegation was His Eminence Metropolitan Emmanuel, Geron of Chalcedon. In...

archons.org

 

[Cathode]

I believe the one church is made of seven generalized congregations....

1. Ephesus - Messianic
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

Seven candlesticks - Seven generalized congregation - All unique one to another
Seven seals - Those names written in the Lambs Book of Life
Seven stars - Those messengers to the congregations

So... Who is saved? Who are the good Catholics? Who are the right Protestants? Who are the revived Philadelphians? Who in Laodicea took their materialism too far? Who are the good wheat? Who are the unsaved tares?

Regarding the Lamb's Book of Life... Sealed with seven seals...
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. - Revelation 5

The answer is... We do not know! We are not worthy to open the Lamb's Book of Life to see who is where! All we can do is wait for the lamb to open the book of life and see who went where!

Having come from a Sardis (a gem... something beautiful) church age denomination, in which everyone went to church dressed up... I marvel on how sloppy people are getting these days.

“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:

9 “I know about your suffering and your poverty—but you are rich! I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan. 10 Don’t be afraid of what you are about to suffer. The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days. But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life.
11 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.”

John here is writing to the Bishop of Smyrna, Polycarp his disciple, who did win the crown by martyrdom.

 

[Cathode]

Constantinople fell in 1453 to the Ottoman Turks. There were no Christian people who cared to rise up to their defense. Byzantine emperor Constantine XI appealed to Westen Europe for help to no avail. Because the Orthodox empire refused to accept the Roman Catholic religion the Roman Catholics just let it fall. Which was a huge blow for Christendom.

The West was in no position to help at the time, it was severely weakened.

The attempts off the Pope to unite east and west were to encourage western nations to make the Easts plight the West’s plight.
Once the Byzantines rejected unity, it became impossible to rally western nations to defend the East. So really it was the Byzantines fault, they would rather have died than make unity with the Latin Church. And so they died.

The Pope had less influence over nations at this time, nations were moving away from the Church’s influence.

 

[37818]

There was no Church prior to the Catholic Church.

'The earliest documented use of the term "Catholic Church" is attributed to Ignatius of Antioch, around 110 AD. He used the term in his letter, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans," . . .'
And the view those letters were forgeries from the mid 3rd century.

 

[JonC]

'The earliest documented use of the term "Catholic Church" is attributed to Ignatius of Antioch, around 110 AD. He used the term in his letter, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans," . . .'
And the view those letters were forgeries from the mid 3rd century.

But early "catholic church" simply meant the "body of Christ". Baptists, like RBC Howell and JR Graves, often used "catholic" in the same way.

But yes, the Catholic Church came about after Rome declared Christianity the official religion. This is why Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic doctrine incorporates a type of paganism in its doctrine (the Catholic Eucharist is one example....but Protestants have somewhat mimicked that one in some ways).

 

[Cathode]

'The earliest documented use of the term "Catholic Church" is attributed to Ignatius of Antioch, around 110 AD. He used the term in his letter, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans," . . .'
And the view those letters were forgeries from the mid 3rd century.

No there are 7 letters which are considered genuine, of which I quoted for you.

Most scholars accept the letters are genuine.

 

[Cathode]

But early "catholic church" simply meant the "body of Christ". Baptists, like RBC Howell and JR Graves, often used "catholic" in the same way.

The difference being that at that time, the Catholic Church was the only Church, so of cause it was also considered the “ body of Christ “.

But yes, the Catholic Church came about after Rome declared Christianity the official religion. This is why Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic doctrine incorporates a type of paganism in its doctrine (the Catholic Eucharist is one example....but Protestants have somewhat mimicked that one in some ways).

No, you already have the quotes that prove the Catholic Church’s existence before Constantine.
Tertullian in 200 Ad wrote of and earlier time regarding the Catholic Church , the time of Antoninus (138-161 Ad), this is shortly after the death of Ignatius into time after the martyrdom of Polycarp in 155 Ad. Both Catholic Apostolic Fathers.
Like I have said before, only Catholics died in the Roman arenas.

There is also the fact that all these writings are only preserved in and by the Catholic Church. So these histories, letters and accounts are lived Catholic experience.

The Lord’s Supper is not mimicked paganry, you have Jesus own words telling you it is His Body and Blood.

There is no surer thing in Heaven and on Earth than Christ own words, “ Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away “.

Directly denying Christ’s own words and then assigning paganry to them, is a disposition I cannot fathom.

 

[rockytopva]

Churches according to seniority...

1. Messianic -Beginning with the Apostle Peter
2. Gentile - Beginning with the Apostle Paul - Romans 11:13
3. Greek Orthodox -Started by Constantine - Who wanted out of pagan Rome
4. Roman Catholic - The official beginning of the Roman Catholic church occurred in 590 C.E., with Pope Gregory I.
5. Protestant - Beginning with Martin Luther in 1517

 

[Cathode]

We see these incredible links the Fathers have with each other to the Apostles, in Apostolic succession.

“I could tell you the place where the blessed Polycarp sat to preach the Word of God. It is yet present to my mind with what gravity he everywhere came in and went out; what was the sanctity of his deportment, the majesty of his countenance; and what were his holy exhortations to the people. I seem to hear him now relate how he conversed with John and many others who had seen Jesus Christ, the words he had heard from their mouths.” Irenaeus 180 Ad

The Word of God comes and persists in two forms The Spoken or preached word by The Spirit and the Written Word of God in Scripture.

Notice Irenaeus is getting The preached word of God by The Spirit from Polycarp .

The Spoken Word of God by The Spirit explains the Written Word of God and abides forever. It gives the correct understanding of Scriptures.

What is preached by The Holy Spirit is received by The Spirit in the listeners and later brought to their memory by The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit operates in the living memory Father to Son.

“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

Protestantism rejected the preached Word of God, and taking only the Written, gave their own interpretations and meanings to it, inventing new doctrines of men.

Scripture explicitly says to told to both the word of mouth tradition and written tradition of the Apostles together. Thus Protestantism broke from both scripture and oral tradition of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cathode]

Churches according to seniority...

1. Messianic -Beginning with the Apostle Peter
2. Gentile - Beginning with the Apostle Paul - Romans 11:13
3. Greek Orthodox -Started by Constantine - Who wanted out of pagan Rome
4. Roman Catholic - The official beginning of the Roman Catholic church occurred in 590 C.E., with Pope Gregory I.
5. Protestant - Beginning with Martin Luther in 1517

No, your history way off here. Don’t know what books you have deluded yourself with.

Sounds like the erroneous branch theory to me.

 

[rockytopva]

The Apostle Paul declares... "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2

At no time did he promote a leadership structure. And made no mention of Peter being a figure of leadership...

Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: - Romans 15:20

 

[Cathode]

The Apostle Paul declares... "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2

At no time did he promote a leadership structure. And made no mention of Peter being a figure of leadership...

Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: - Romans 15:20

It was Jesus that established Peter as head of the Apostles, not Paul.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of existing denominations both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the oldest continuing (ignoring when each transformed into something different....then I'd say the Orthodox).

We don't know of the churches that existed prior to the Catholic Church. They could also have existed in congregations apart from the Catholic denomination (there was a good 4 centuries before the Catholic Church), but if so we have no evidence other than congregations existed).

Lets see

the churches of rome. to who Paul wrote the letter to the romans

The church in corinth

the church in ephesus.

there were many churches before the roman catholic church started sometime in the 3rd century